To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

[PerryPerryThePlatypus]

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

Yep not happening here either

Bertrand why are you being obtuse? I have never ever suggested that.

Some women on here have said that they don't think they should have to engage with any man in any circumstance if an unknown man wants to talk to them. Not everyone has said that most have narrowed that down to unwanted advances but not everyone has.

Some women have said that men should have to accept there because men are to blame for the issue.

It is that what i mean by 'ignore' or 'not' engaging.

No one on here is going to even try to grasp what I mean so I don't see any point in continuing.

issue one - changing men's behaviour

issue two - women keeping themselves safe as they can in a society where gendered violence is prolific

you don't deal with one by ignoring two and for individual women two has to be the priority.

What if pointedly ignoring this shit got it to stop? Ever thought of that? Being nicey nicey to these arseholes only seems to encourage them.

I'm happy I'm not making the journey to equality any longer or more arduous than it needs to be by not engaging with men I don't wish to speak to.

Tara, when you appeared to be misunderstanding me I suggested that it might be my fault. Would it be a good idea if you think about whether you aren't being as clear S you think you are. I can only remember one poster who said that men should never talk to women under any circumstances. I think everyone else says that it's fine for men to talk to women they don't know so long as they would talk to a man they don't know in the same circumstances I think that's why people are baffled by your talk of ignoring and failing to engage. Might that be the issue?

Just heard on the radio that in France prosecutors are trying to get wolf whistling banned

Not sure how this would work but any banning of men hassling girls and women I am in support of

Would it be a good idea if you think about whether you aren't being as clear S you think you are.

Tara being as clear as anything, I'm really struggling to understand myself why people are having such a hard time reading and comprehending!

I think it's my fault that taratill is getting hung up on the 'under any circumstances' bit because I wrote this. It doesn't actually say 'under any circumstances' but I now understand how important it is to be very, very specific. So: I don't want a strange man to approach me when I'm alone, if I'm in a vulnerable position such as (to hark back to our favourite example) on a train carriage by myself at night.

I am happy to speak to men otherwise. I am happy for my son's friend's dad to say hello to me in the playground at drop off, for example.

But if I was out walking my dog alone in the countryside, I would prefer if strange men left me alone, even if they do just fancy a chat because them approaching me would make me nervous, because I wouldn't know that he just fancied a chat.

I'm genuinely not sure how much clearer I can make that.

Well I am finding it hard to understand. Assume I am immensely thick, Krytens, and explain it to me. Bearing in mind that only one poster has said that no man should ever approach a woman they don't know under any circumstances, and most people are saying that if they would approach a man in the same way and the same circumstances then they should go ahead....

Well I am finding it hard to understand. Assume I am immensely thick, Krytens, and explain it to me.

People have explained. Over, and over, and over. You're either not prepared to listen or completely incapable of understanding.

No I definitely wouldn’t encourage my DDs to engage with strange men at a train station, trouble is there are always teenagers young and naive enough, like my DSis was, to respond to their overtures. It’s about educating our DDs to be wise and know how to protect themselves.

I agree it’s down to men to change the way they treat women; that will only happen when there are proper deterrents for crimes against women.

Bertrand I don't think I can possibly be making myself clear.

It is, perhaps, only one person who has overtly said not to talk to any man in any circumstances but others have said that they always give off vibes that they don't want to be talked to which effectively cuts off the possibility of conversation. One is overt the other is more subtle.

Both are not wanting to engage in conversation with men at all, even if it might have no connotations.

I am asking what outcome that achieves other than a personal one? If the answer is I want to keep myself safe then that I understand, it's the notion that if we do that 'they'll learn' that I don't grasp.

Re ; education some people are saying that it is up to men to educate themselves and that within families we can guide our boys. When the question of boys who are not living in families/ environments which promote equality arises the answer is 'well they can't always blame their mothers'. So who or what is going to change the culture? I assume we all know that until that culture changes the number of incidents/attitude towards women won't change.

And no I'm not saying men don't have responsibility to call each other out, of course they do, but culture is so ingrained that it will take more than that.

Does that make any more sense?

Love the idea of making things like wolf whistling and cat calling offences. That's positive action.

pumper that makes sense. It really does. But it wasn't just that post I was thinking of, don't think I have the energy to trawl back through or even that it would achieve anything.

Hopefully my explanation above will make sense likewise.

Right. I must have missed all the posters saying they don't want to engage with men at all. Of course that's a very extreme position. I haven't met a feminist separatist since 1972. But if that's what people are saying then you're right, that wouldn't do much to educate men.

And parents, particularly fathers I think have a very important role in the raising of boys. I don't know what should be done about boys who do not have that sort of family background-school is important of course. The media have a huge responsibility too. It is hardly surprising that men and women who don't think very much have crap attitudes to women when journalists who ought to know better perpetuate misogyny on a daily basis.

You know what would really be nice? For any woman, anytime, anywhere, to be able to walk down an alleyway alone at night and just to be, and feel, SAFE. Safe because she knows nothing is going to happen to her. Because nothing ever does. To never have that constant trepidation and tightness when a man approaches, to never have that fear that ALL women know and some men just will never understand. THAT would be progress

Unfortunately, if a certain kind of man knows he will get away with it he will do it. As is evidenced by that anatomically correct female doll in the news recently that got molested again and again. The fact that women have rights over their bodies is nothing but a huge inconvenience to these men.

takemedown totally agree that it would be nice for women to be safe.

Bertrand do I really need to go and trawl back through the posts to find the ones which have said that they give off vibes on the assumption that men would only want to talk to them for gendered reasons? Or have you missed the point that I made about it not being overt?

tara I really would save yourself the time and effort - I already have trawled back for stuff people were flat out denying were said, and then just got back "but but" "that's not what it said" instead.
I think some are just being wilfully obtuse or just refusing to listen.

krytens you're right, I've been saying the same thing for 24 hours now.

And the sad thing is that we all actually want the same thing!

And the sad thing is that we all actually want the same thing!

Exactly!

Do we all want to stop NALMALT and 'women do it too' being used on threads to shut down discussion? That was the original point of the thread, and that's what I want.

Me too.

I am so helpful

on the other poster's husband had at the train station shouldn't have started just because he's a man. question - "I'm wondering how some people met their partners if they don't ever like random men speaking to them."

answer - In all the places where it's entirely appropriate for strangers to speak to each other. Like-not in a deserted station at midnight.

alsobecause how do I know if a strange man approaching me is going to be friendly or aggressive? I would rather he didn't approach me at all, because I'd be nervous regardless of his intentions.

So two examples...one i think is pumpers the other says that men should not chat on a deserted train station in the middle of the night

So just to clarify its midnight, i am wating for my train, the only other person there is a man...and i am being unreasonable if i dont want him to approach me??

It's just going to go round and round because:

• you don't speak for all women when you say men shouldn't speak to other women when out and about. (Which has been said, even if you refuse to see it.)
  It's a sad world if people are too scared to say anything to someone of the opposite sex.
  To pre-empt anyone being obtuse, of course I don't mean harrass. That's never acceptable. People are usually good at telling or showing you when you shouldn't speak, either through a verbal "get lost" or their body language!
  I don't see anything wrong with a "morning love" for example whilst walking past in the street. People say "morning" to each other when they pass in the streets round here. Even if you don't know them. You say a cheery "morning" back. Maybe a passing comment about how rubbish the weather is today.
  Maybe this is where we all differ as some would probably think "how dare you say good morning to me, do I look like I want to be spoken to?" and "I'm not your love, how very dare you."

pumper

Do we all want to stop NALMALT and 'women do it too' being used on threads to shut down discussion? That was the original point of the thread, and that's what I want.

Yes me too

good point to revert back to the original post. I think it is difficult because if you blanket ban 'women do it too' you're in danger of saying I don't want to listen to a particular point of view. I'm not sure how that helps the cause in the long run.

Case in point on this thread is the diversion of the 'man at the railway station'. Not all women are going to agree on a specific point as this has demonstrated on here whilst having broadly the same feminist agenda. The women who don't agree should not be shut down if they have a valid reason not to agree or a valid reason to query the approach.