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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

999 replies

PerryPerryThePlatypus · 18/10/2017 08:13

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

OP posts:
taratill · 19/10/2017 15:11

I actually do give up.

How are they supposed to have the lightbulb moment by people ignoring them Bertrand ?

I'm not saying that people shouldn't ignore them if that's what they want to do, I just don't think it will have the desired effect. That's not how you change society.

BertrandRussell · 19/10/2017 15:19

"How are they supposed to have the lightbulb moment by people ignoring them Bertrand ?"

Ignoring them under what circumstances? When they make unwelcome advances? Is that the point you think women should be educating them? I'm sorry if that's not what you're saying....

Surely any decent man wouldn't need educating about this sort of stuff? Most men I know go out of their way to avoid doing anything that might frighten someone or make them feel uncomfortable. It's not hard!

BertrandRussell · 19/10/2017 15:21

I mean, I certainly would try to educate them at that point, but I am not the sort of women strange men want to make friends with on deserted railwway stations...........

whiskyowl · 19/10/2017 15:23

I think perhaps we're approaching this in a rather, ahem, odd way.

Massive social change is unlikely to occur on trains or because of random conversations with strangers. I mean, there's never been a movement that I can think of that has focused attention on change via casual conversations. Grin

It's far more likely that male gender attitudes will be shaped by mothers, fathers, siblings, friends, school environments, partners, mores in pubs and clubs, organisational environments etc. It will take a concerted cultural effort across domains of family, education, leisure, commerce, politics childcare and just about every other area of society - including economics, of course - to effect meaningful change. It's unlikely to come as a lightbulb revelation moment, either - with mean leaping up from their seat, bashing into the buffet car as they cry "EUREKA I NOW UNDERSTAND EQUALITY" while tea and biscuits fly all over adjacent passengers - far more likely that we see a tectonic, gradual shift in mores and assumptions, with an old-fashioned rump of people who mutter incoherently about "PC gone mad" and "losing white male culture".

(I take some hope in #metoo and other such initiatives because they draw important lines in the sand. They're not sufficient on their own, but they send a message that behaviour that was once broadly tolerated - sadly - is now decried as unacceptable and disgusting).

taratill · 19/10/2017 15:27

I think a lot is getting lost in translation.

I'm not saying they should need educating rather than ignoring when they are making unwelcome advances.

I'm saying that the proposition that ignoring men rather than talking to them 'just in case' they might be approaching you/ talking to you for undesirable reasons won't educate men on any issues.

What we need is changes in society. That's not going to happen by ignoring / failing to engage.

taratill · 19/10/2017 15:30

whiskyowl very very valid point.

I wasn't saying you educate men by engaging in chit chat (on trains or elsewhere) though, just that equally you don't educate them on anything by not engaging.

BertrandRussell · 19/10/2017 15:31

"What we need is changes in society. That's not going to happen by ignoring / failing to engage"

Ok. So where is this ignoring/failing to engage happening? I'm completely lost now.

HornyTortoise · 19/10/2017 15:31

It's unlikely to come as a lightbulb revelation moment, either - with mean leaping up from their seat, bashing into the buffet car as they cry "EUREKA I NOW UNDERSTAND EQUALITY" while tea and biscuits fly all over adjacent passengers - far more likely that we see a tectonic, gradual shift in mores and assumptions, with an old-fashioned rump of people who mutter incoherently about "PC gone mad" and "losing white male culture".

Definitely agree. Its will be more a trickling effect than a waterfall. As more and more men gain the courage to challenge the status quo. I do think its happening.

I don't think theres much women can actually do in this regard, bar bringing up their sons to be as feminist as possible

Its down to men, to challenge it. And I do have hope that more and more will

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/life/as-men-its-our-job-to-challenge-the-culture-that-enables-people-like-harvey-weinstein

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 19/10/2017 15:33

I agree horny

taratill · 19/10/2017 15:56

but what about the women who don't challenge it, what about their son's? Who's teaching them?

HornyTortoise · 19/10/2017 16:03

I don't think I understand the question. However I read it I can;t make sense of it :S

Pumperthepumper · 19/10/2017 16:06

taratill you keep using the word 'ignore' - what do you mean by that?

taratill · 19/10/2017 16:07

Ok perhaps that wasn't clear:

you said

'I don't think there is much women can do, apart from bringing up their son's to be feminist'.

I'm saying, some women do not bring up their boys in the way that you do. Some women enable male dominance in the home and don't teach their boys to be respectful of women.

I'm asking who is responsible to educate those boys and those who enable for any reason?

taratill · 19/10/2017 16:09

read 'failing to engage* for ignore - I think that works. Language is a funny thing so open to misinterpretation.

Mittens1969 · 19/10/2017 16:09

You are right, taratill, it’s a huge issue and is not going to be resolved by just talking about strange men at train stations. I mentioned earlier about gender stereotyping with presents and cards, it goes on and on.

Positively, my DH works as a bridge engineer for local government and there are women working in senior positions in what has traditionally been a male domain. We need to be encouraging our DCs to think outside the box in terms of where they want to get to in life. Yes, small steps, but still progress.

BertrandRussell · 19/10/2017 16:10

There does come a point in your life when you can no longer hold your mother responsible for how you turn out.

Pumperthepumper · 19/10/2017 16:12

Smashing post whisky! And I agree with you too Horny about the trickle effect, I think that's a really succinct way of putting it and I definitely agree that more men are starting to be aware. And absolutely this its down to men, to challenge it

BertrandRussell · 19/10/2017 16:12

I honestly don't understand your "failure to engage" point. Where and when?

TheHoneyBadger · 19/10/2017 16:13

To be honest whilst judges let off men who gang rape girls in stairwells on the premise that 'she looked older than she was' and rape and child sexual abuse is given token sentences even when prosecutions do happen then talking about 'educating' men in subtle ways is a bit of a farce.

You stop people speeding by their being severe penalties that will cost them and by making their chances of being caught and dealt with seem very real. Not by people talking to them on train platforms about how it's not very nice to speed.

I agree the big institutional changes have to come first in order for anyone to take seriously the idea of changing their behaviour and letting go of their entitlement.

Pumperthepumper · 19/10/2017 16:13

taratill who's failing to engage with whom?

BertrandRussell · 19/10/2017 16:17

I've been an active feminist since the 1970s. You'll forgive me if I'm not holding my breath waiting for the"trickle down effect"

HandbagKrabby · 19/10/2017 16:22

All round the houses this! I'm very confused why there's been 100s of posts essentially accusing women such as myself as being unfair to nice men who just want a conversation because I don't want to talk to them and not only being unfair to mr nice who just wants to call about the weather but I'm also missing an important opportunity to educate not nice men because I don't want to talk to them.

But now it's not about individual women talking to individual men (not that it ever was) it's now about looking at the bigger picture. It is quite frankly a huge mess isn't it? How do you educate people who are being brought up in sexist households to not be sexist? Hopefully, much like younger generations tend to be less racist than older ones (a vast generalisation and nagalt) through general society, if general society becomes less sexist it may happen. If it becomes socially unacceptable to treat women in an unequal fashion then things may change.

HornyTortoise · 19/10/2017 16:31

I'm saying, some women do not bring up their boys in the way that you do. Some women enable male dominance in the home and don't teach their boys to be respectful of women.

I'm asking who is responsible to educate those boys and those who enable for any reason?
No idea. I don't have all the answers. What I do know is no matter what women do, its going to come down mainly to men. Men are those with the power to actually make the difference here.

BertrandRussell · 19/10/2017 16:34

I don't know who is responsible for educating them. But I am buggered if I am going to encourage my dd to engage any man who approaches her and tries to "make friends" in feminist dialectic........

HornyTortoise · 19/10/2017 16:38

But I am buggered if I am going to encourage my dd to engage any man who approaches her and tries to "make friends" in feminist dialectic........

In-fucking-deed

Teaching your young daughters to engage strange men who approach them as chances are he is just wanting to be friendly ( Hmm ) is a recipe for disaster, surely.