To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

[PerryPerryThePlatypus]

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

There seems to be a determination with some posters to take logic too far - ie "I dont want to be having a conversation with a random bloke on a deserted railway station at midnight" to mean "I never want to speak to a man again in my life".

It's so depressing when you could have an interesting discussion about the debate and come up with some solutions - as has happened - to keep it being boxed back in the corner with the what-aboutery.

frequency is on point at the moment

Yeah i head that story whisky

I was at a party recently another women and i were talking, friends husband decided to join. We weren't agreeing with him so he very obviously turned his back on us...twat

to keep it being boxed back in the corner with the what-aboutery.

No. Whataboutery. Just differing of opinions!

to mean "I never want to speak to a man again in my life"

Erm, nobody has interpreted it as never wanting to speak to a man again in their life.

I agree yolo

"to mean "I never want to speak to a man again in my life"

Erm, nobody has interpreted it as never wanting to speak to a man again in their life. confused"

Well, they have interpreted it as "men should never, ever speak to women" Despite many explanations to the contrary using many different words. And it's also been interpreted as "women should ignore men"

There is a very good book that is mentioned many times on MN called The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker in it he advises women to not be so nice to men when they are not wanting to be and to be blunt and reasons that women are conditioned to be nice and I thoughtful and men simply are not

Even if a man is just wanting to pass the time chatting (which has very rarely happened) i may not want to chat with him why should I give him my attention because he is wanting it I don't expect this from men so why should men expect it from women

I’ve noticed that some men act similarly twattish around my DDs. When DD2 was 4 years old, just before starting school, she and DD1 attended a drama summer club for one week. One of the instructors kept saying to DD2, ‘You’re so cute, I’m going to take you away with me.’ He kept wanting to touch her as well.

She became seriously clingy as a result, which didn’t help with her starting school.

Now why would this man continue to communicate with a little girl like that, when she’s clearly becoming scared? It was thoroughly unwanted conversation apart from anything else.

mittens I would have reported that drama instructor. That's highly inappropriate.

Broadly speaking we are all singing from the same hymn sheet really.

The only difference is that whilst in a ideal world men (who have brought it on themselves) would educate themselves, I just really don't think that this will happen so I question the efficacy of the approach to produce the desired result. It's all well and good saying men ought to take responsibility. Of course they should. It doesn't mean they will though.

There is a reason why organisations such as the UN feel the need to have women's ambassadors (although some of the choices they have made in that regard are pretty objectionable).

I'm just responding to the OP - haven't rtft throughout. I think it is broader than MN and i'm seeing it everywhere and my first thought on reflecting on why was that I think actually people are actually sick to death of identity politics and the divisions that come with it and the kind of 'special snowflake' demands BUT whilst they don't feel safe to express that in response to gay or trans or ethnic voices of complaint or requests for consideration it is, as ever, safe to vent at women.

Hope that makes some sense.

"It's all well and good saying men ought to take responsibility. Of course they should. It doesn't mean they will though."

I agree - I think this is why the whole "women must speak to and educate men" thing is misguided. It's why I keep banging on about the importance of power, structural change, institutional change, challenging the public discourse etc etc etc Because, as I keep saying to the point that everyone is sick of hearing it the problem isn't just individual men- it's also out there in our culture, our institutions, our politics, our organisations, our cultural assumptions, our legal system, our school system. I don't just want to see Harvey Weinstein held to account for the appalling things he's done as if he's some unique, one-off "bad apple" - I want to see him go to prison AND for there to be a fundamental challenge to, and reworking of, the power relations in business and industry that mean that women are treated like objects by a whole Harvey Weinsteins in everyday life. Partly that's just because this is the morally right thing to do, but it's partly also because I genuinely believe that if you start looking at the structural causes you will get a double win - because you'll also have to start to tackle the barriers to women being equally rewarded and being given equal opportunities when doing the same job as their male colleagues.

But I am sure we all agree on this to some degree!

*That should say "whole LOAD OF Harvey Weinsteins"

ie. the lashback is at actually at a broad array of interest groups and the lack of a broad reaching 'us' identity that people feel safe and comfortable in but there is a process of dissociation (eg. it's not safe to punch your boss so you go home and kick the dog process) and all of the frustration gets fired at women.

I understand honey. I think you may be on to something there.

Im a bit fed up with the

Women must educate men thing and the worse (not from you taratill) women need to ask nicely...or better

Thousands of fucking years, of asking nicely, of doing the chores, of bringing up the babies, of women fighting to gain an inch at a fucking time

A few days ago on the news there were two stories one was thomas the tank engine having more females and ethnic minority's another was similar about....its 2017!!! Am I supposed to go yippee!! Do these programme makers want a fucking prize

My dad getting all pleased that women's football is on the telly. Whoop de fucking doo...its been years of womens sports being ignored and now im supposed to be as chuffed as 10, oh im so pleased with how well we are being represented. Talk about throwing the dog a bone

Its just so annoying if we stupid women has just clicked that we just needed to ask

And breathe

whisky but institutional change won't happen by sitting back and letting the men sort it out, it ought to but it won't.

Rufus the small changes such as you describe will slowly change how people think and will hopefully lead to bigger changes. I think we should be pleased for the small changes too.

Oh I just spotted on in the news -from today bodyform will use red liquid in their adverts.
Blood is red, well who knew. Cookies for them too.

tara - yes, precisely! I agree!

Thank you, taratill, I should have done, I reported him, I know. I’m not very good at knowing what really is inappropriate and what’s me being paranoid because of the past. It was particularly inappropriate with DD2 because she’s adopted and him saying he would take her away scared her to death.

What I’m very sure of, though, is that he wouldn’t have approached my DH in that way.

If a man approaches me when I'm on my own to start a gendered conversation how would I know if it's safe or not to educate him in the error of his ways?

I'd assume that a man who does not respect my boundaries in the first instance (by insisting on talking to me, by making it about being male/female etc) is not going to take kindly to me pushing back. I don't want a patronising comment about needing help to get over my issues but I'm damned if I'm putting myself potentially at risk of potential violence in the hopes I can educate a man into being less of a dick. I'm far more forthright in these situations and generally they leave me alone these days.

I'd share a pleasantry with a man on a busy train platform regarding late trains. This is Britain after all and we are generally polite. I ain't going to start explaining about institutional power differentials to the bloke who approaches me when I'm on my own and starts telling me how beautiful I am.

I'm fairly sure I've been on previous threads with posters on here regarding rape myths who were insisting women's behaviour meant they put themselves at risk. They're here simultaneously arguing women should put themselves in situations they feel uncomfortable so they don't potentially hurt a man's feelings.

In general the best advice to most women is not to engage with random men when out and about. I even had one on a tube insisting to know the name of the books I was reading (yes I was reading a physical book). I had to ram the cover down to stop him (not that it was particularly secret but it's none of his business). Our children and teenagers can be too trusting at times and you have to make sure they know how to stay safe. My 16 year or 17 y ear old son not too long ago was approached by a beggar in London who needed money to get cleaned up for a job interview. My stupid son accompanied the tramp to a local hotel where the doorman confirmed the story was true (they were presumably in league together) and my son then gave over £10. Okay so kind nice son to give money to those in need but probably better to give money in safer ways.

handbag you're stretching the point a bit there. No one is telling anyone to do anything they fell uncomfortable with to avoid potentially hurting a man's feelings.

I'm not talking about how individuals feel. That's up to them.

I'm making a much broader point than that and looking at the issue from the reverse angle which is wondering how it is actually going to result in change.
I feel that I am now being deliberately misunderstood.

whiskyowl hurrah! I've felt like a bit of a loner on here. So nice to be agreed with.

I keep on thinking of the domestic analogies. A man puts the bins out once a week and checks the tyre pressures on both cars and takes the kids swimming on Sundays and that's 50:50. Despite the fact that the woman does all the cooking and cleaning and washing. A man cooks Christmas Dinner, and is praised to the heights- despite the fact that his partner has done all the shopping, planning and wrapping, and the women do the clearing and washing up.

In order for men (again,as a class- we all know NAMALT) to do the obvious right,sensitive and decent thing he needs a team of women "educating" him.

"I'm making a much broader point than that and looking at the issue from the reverse angle which is wondering how it is actually going to result in change."

Well, men realizing that they are in a position to frighten many women might make them change their behaviour. And it might make them think?

Many years ago I was travelling across London via tube, I think we were aged 17 (me) and 15. We were going up the escalator when DSis was lured away to join a young man who wanted her to go away with him on the tube, and in the end told her he wanted her to spend the night with him.

Meanwhile, I was at the top of the escalator waiting for het with our luggage, she’d told me she’d dropped something. I went to find her and, being 2 years older, saw through the man and he backed off seeing that my DSis wasn’t alone. But that’s what creeps you meet when travelling by train.