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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

999 replies

PerryPerryThePlatypus · 18/10/2017 08:13

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

OP posts:
JoanBartlett · 19/10/2017 10:26

It depends what random men say.

  1. I was in the post office queue the other week. The man behind made a comment about my cardigan not coming down very low (it ends above the waist). I would never comment on a random man's clothing. I looked roun. He was harmless and a bit older than I am and I decided to turn the conversation around - said what a pity it was women's clothing companies give us less material and fewer clothes and how lucky he was to have pockets in his long cardigan - turning it round to a discuss of his (rather scruffy but long) cardigan...... he was oldish and no threat. However why mention my clothes at all? Why not just say - long queue as ever or something random.
  1. On holiday abroad going for long walks on the beach for 2 hours every morning every day when I passed couples or single men one man would speak to me. Okay fine - if it's just lovely day. Instead it was always controlling. It was not a sexual come on but it was being bossy such as you need your sandals on on this part or this bit is better if you take off your shoes. Why should they try to boss me around on a public beach? I wasn't going up to them saying - hang on mate, take off your shoes or your shoes will get wet up the next bit. Yes they were trying to be kind but it was basically telling me what to do in a public place as if they owned that space and they were in charge.

So if men want examples of things not to say when out and about 1. don't mention how women look and 2. don't tell them what to do (another example of that is "give us a smile love")

taratill · 19/10/2017 10:28

whisky good point.

MillicentFawcett · 19/10/2017 10:28

Yes, of course most attacks are by perpetrators known to the victim. I was responding to this statement: "The chances of a random attack on a train station are pretty slim given CCTV etc."

But I'm bored with the selective reading too so I'm off to the pub with Bertrand.

BertrandRussell · 19/10/2017 10:29

"Mitten I'm sorry you have your own issues that make you feel like that."

Jesus. Could you be any more belittling and dismissive???

HornyTortoise · 19/10/2017 10:30

"I'm wondering how some people met their partners if they don't ever like random men speaking to them."
answer - In all the places where it's entirely appropriate for strangers to speak to each other. Like-not in a deserted station at midnight.

Not seeing where that post says no men should ever speak to women.

because how do I know if a strange man approaching me is going to be friendly or aggressive? I would rather he didn't approach me at all, because I'd be nervous regardless of his intentions.

Again, not that men should never speak to women. But that that poster would be nervous of random blokes approaching and would prefer if they did not (I would think this is a more common opinion than the opposite actually). But yes, much closer to whats being claimed to have been said.

Do you think womens fears are completely unfounded? That there is no reason for women to fear men (as a class)? That its unreasonable to be nervous if you see a random bloke coming up to you in an isolated area? Or can you understand where the people saying this are coming from?

I really do wish there was no reason to fear that random man coming over to compliment my top and tell me it would look better on his bedroom floor but there is, overall. Yes that one guy might not be a threat, but a lot of men are and until we develop some sort of creep-o-meter we just don't know.

Now, personally I would not be scared under most circumstances of a man approaching me. I do find it an annoyance though. Even though I would not be scared, I realise a lot of women are, and with good reason. 'The nice guys' know this is the case too...and would avoid approaching lone women because they know that they could be perceived as a threat.

'Nice guys' just would not want to scare a woman. 'Nice guys' know that men are a danger to women and that a lot of women would be scared of men, especially when they are in a vulnerable position. 'Nice guys' understand, and will read social cues. They don't want to be read as the 'not so nice guys'. A nice guy would be well aware that him strutting his way up the train platform to approach the lone woman, would likely be scary for her. So they would not do it.

Until the epidemic of male violence is resolved, nice guys need to bear in mind that a lot of women have met the bad guys. Nice guys would not mind being asked to think twice about if they are actually approaching that random woman 'to be friendly' or for another reason. And they would also not take it personally that so many women ARE afraid of men. A nice guy would not take fear of men (as a class) as fear of himself.

taratill · 19/10/2017 10:32

bertrand I had no intention whatsoever of being belittling I am sorry she had that experience.

taratill · 19/10/2017 10:33

Again where on earth is the selective reading and why is no one answering the very simple question of what is expecting men not to start conversations in case someone is offended supposed to achieve to help women?

HornyTortoise · 19/10/2017 10:36

A woman at the train station shouldn't ever talk to another woman then because there was no reason to speak in the first place.

Genuine question here. How often do random women come up to speak to you, rather than random men? I would bet probably about as often as men go up to other random men to start talking to them, which is not often at all. But your life seems to be extremely different to anything I have ever known, so maybe you live somewhere with a high proportion of very chatty women with no boundaries.

I would be quite annoyed by either a random woman coming up to me to talk, same as a random man. I would not be nervous of a random woman though, where I might be of a random man. Simply as I know women are not as much of a threat as men are. And I know if it came down to it, I stand a fair chance against a woman, I would not stand a chance against a man, even half my size...if he really wanted to hurt me.

This does not mean I spend all my life terrified of men. Not at all. Being aware of the danger men pose though, is entirely sensible I would say.

whiskyowl · 19/10/2017 10:36

" Instead it was always controlling. It was not a sexual come on but it was being bossy"

Oh, I hear you, I so hear you! And I AM SICK OF IT TOO!! Again, it comes back to the difference I was trying to outline earlier, between two-way exchange and one-way exchange. I'm sick of men claiming a right to a one-way exchange. It might seem like a very subtle thing compared to the heavy and overtly violent stuff we are talking about, but in a way it comes from the same place: the denial to women of an equal status in dialogue.

whiskyowl · 19/10/2017 10:38

I think, leading on from that - this is the problem with approaches by men:

  • they happen in a lop-sided context of power, where women are more frequently subjected to harassment than men are
and
  • they happen in a lop-sided context of discourse, where women are often not invited to the conversation as a full and equal participant

I think I would be OK with an approach from a man, provided it was sensitive to BOTH of those imbalances.

HornyTortoise · 19/10/2017 10:42

krytens - you are fine with men approaching you and complimenting you in an isolated place. Other women are not and would rather those men didn't do it. There is a difference of opinion and attitude here. Neither side is right or wrong, it is just a difference. Do you not think, though, that men should be aware that some women feel a bit threatened by a random stranger approaching them, and bear that in mind when considering whether to do so? I mean, it's a pretty anti-social person who goes around the world voluntarily causing people alarm and fear, isn't it? I'm not saying men shouldn't approach women, but that they should do so bearing in mind a culture of pervasive harassment, and that they should be listen to the woman's responses, and not be offended if she chooses not to engage at any length.

Yes, this put it much better than I did with my warbled wall of text

whiskyowl · 19/10/2017 10:43

I think sometimes it helps to have it stated several different ways horny

Mittens1969 · 19/10/2017 10:43

I’m not looking for sympathy here. There are a lot of women who, like me, have been through trauma as a result of sexual assault (childhood SA in my case). Men need to be aware that their making random approaches to strange women on their own could spook them. So if they need to ask for help, just ask for it without making unsolicited comments about what they’re wearing.

JoanBartlett · 19/10/2017 10:44

Yes, it it were not lop sided it's fine. Not once on that beach abroad did the women I passed whether with their man or not speak to me. (They probably had the sense to realise that if you're on a beach on your own on a long walk the last thing you want is conversation).

I can only remember one objectionable woman's comment in the last year. I was mowing the grass. You can see in (she is a neighbour, perfectly nice) but she mimicked the way I was mowing with some weird gestures. Surely I get a bit of privacy in my own garden doing something active like mowing without someone interfering and I can bend over pushign the mower in any position I want in my own home. I just carried on mowing. I was not going to stop for a chat. But usually in my whole life it has been man making some kind of power comment or comment about dress/sexual comment, trying to control me. Eg I might be cucling up hill and 2 men in white van slow down, open window and shout something like "put your back into it love...."

MillicentFawcett · 19/10/2017 10:48

Tara: "what is expecting men not to start conversations in case someone is offended supposed to achieve to help women?"

has been answered by both whiskey and HT very eloquently. And I was going to write something similar to Mittens but then decided that you don't get to exploit my trauma to understand that other women have very good reason to be nervous of men. In a week when hundreds and thousands of women are describing their experiences of sexual assault and harassment online, your question seems particularly perverse.

BertrandRussell · 19/10/2017 10:50

Tara. Language is important. You're a lawyer. You know that. There is a difference, particularly on a thread like this between "I am sorry that happened to you" and "I am sorry you have had a personal experience that made you feel that way about the subject under discussion". There is a difference between "attack" and "make feel uneasy, uncomfortable or scared" And the use of the word "offended" is almost always a red flag. But, as I said, the pub calls.

taratill · 19/10/2017 11:06

I don't feel that it has adequately been answered to make me change my opinion.

I still don't see how not talking to men will stop men from acting inappropriately to women and treating them like second class citizens?

I don't think anyone has addressed the connection between the 2 things. Yes they have stated why they don't want to do it and I understand the reasoning behind that. I just simply don't understand how it will help stamp out the unwanted behaviour and make an effective change? That's what everyone wants isn't it?

HornyTortoise · 19/10/2017 11:22

taratill. Lets be honest here, no matter how adequately it was answered, by any amount of people you would not change your opinion on this.

I still don't see how not talking to men will stop men from acting inappropriately to women and treating them like second class citizens?

Why can a woman not just chose not to talk to men? Why is this an issue?

I just simply don't understand how it will help stamp out the unwanted behaviour and make an effective change?

Depends what you are meaning by unwanted behavior. I would say randomly approaching women to chat them up IS unwanted behavior, so in that way, just the not approaching women helps stamp out unwanted behavior surely.

That's what everyone wants isn't it?

Of course. What, besides raising our sons to be respectful, do you propose we do? And what can we do to make women safer in the meantime? Asking men to think twice before approaching random women in vulnerable situations is clearly a no no as the man may simply want to chat (at midnight in the train station). Asking them to be aware of the sheer scale of violence and harassment towards women from a lot of men is also a no go incase they take this as being blamed for the actions of others. Asking them to only speak to a woman if they would speak to a man in the same situation is a no also, as men don't speak to other men incase the man thinks they are gay(!?) So...?

Society in general needs to change. IMO this includes the notion that men imposing themselves onto women on a regular basis is something thats inevitable and should be expected.

taratill · 19/10/2017 11:41

horny of course women can chose to do what they like, who said they shouldn't?

I'm not for the absolute millionth time not talking about approaches to chat a person up, I'm talking about not wanting to talk to men full stop on the assumption that that (or worse) must be the motive.

But how by ignoring men are we 'asking them to think twice'? We're not asking them anything if we ignore them. I have no objection to a dialogue on this I'm just not sure they will be getting that message by being ignored. All for a conversation challenging men on behaviour and asking them to consider how a woman might think about certain things. Great idea.

I've already listed a number of ideas of ways that as a society we could educate children on this. I do'n't want to tell my son not to talk to females in case it upsets them , that's really sad. I'd rather teach him how to talk to women respectfully as equals.

Frequency · 19/10/2017 12:06

Well, if more women ignored these rude, intrusive men rather than feeling obligated to listen to them, the men would surely stop forcing themselves and their opinion's on women.

There are other things that can be done but most of those things need to be done by men, who are after all, the ones causing the problem.

Men need to challenge other men when they see them catcalling women, they need to not model that behaviour to their children. When they see other men imposing on women who clearly don't want to interact, they need to call that guy out or check in with the woman that she is okay. And when in the pub with mates they need to make it clear that they are not okay with objectifying women and rape jokes aren't funny.

In other words men are the ones committing the behaviour, they are the ones who need to stop it.

If a woman replied "I am sorry but I think that is rude" or "why are you inserting yourself into my personal space?" She would be deemed hysterical, frigid or accused of misunderstanding the man's perfectly innocent Hmm intentions. He'd get defensive (and possibly aggressive). If a man challenged the behaviour, he's more likely to be listened to and less likely to be on the receiving end of an aggressive response.

JoanBartlett · 19/10/2017 12:07

Most women typical ignore men like this. It is the very very best and safest advice of all. So very many men think if you speak to them you want to go to bed with them and take that as some kind of massive indication of your keeness. One man even said after a lunch I must have liked him because he could see my nipples were erect (this is over a lunch not in bed!). I wasn't even speaking. Just being. So you have to be really clear with many men - and the clearest way not to get drawn into their pick ups (and many of them are out there wanting to pick you up particularly if you are cursed with large breasts as I am) is to ignore them.

I remember my daughter saying every time she went to her local tube two men were there every morning looking women up and down as if they owned the place. Obviously you ignore them and a cat can look at a queen etc but it's still nasty the way they do it. Now we can't stop them looking but I really don't think speaking to most of them does much good at all. In the post office I think my chat to them an about his own clothes and structure of his cardigan was a good plan although even then he probably took it to mean I was interested in his body and clothes I suppose.

BertrandRussell · 19/10/2017 12:10

"I do'n't want to tell my son not to talk to females in case it upsets them , that's really sad"

Neither do I. Neither does anyone!

whiskyowl · 19/10/2017 12:20

I've found that the more persistent of these men are surprisingly impervious to being ignored. Mainly because they don't invite you there as an equal participant in the discussion anyway.

One of my favourite accounts of this is in Rebecca Solnit's now-classic essay:

"We were preparing to leave [a party], when our host said, “No, stay a little longer so I can talk to you.” He was an imposing man who’d made a lot of money.

He kept us waiting while the other guests drifted out into the summer night, and then sat us down at his authentically grainy wood table and said to me, “So? I hear you’ve written a couple of books.”

I replied, “Several, actually.”

He said, in the way you encourage your friend’s seven-year-old to describe flute practice, “And what are they about?”

They were actually about quite a few different things, the six or seven out by then, but I began to speak only of the most recent on that summer day in 2003, River of Shadows: Eadweard Muybridge and the Technological Wild West, my book on the annihilation of time and space and the industrialization of everyday life.

He cut me off soon after I mentioned Muybridge. “And have you heard about the very important Muybridge book that came out this year?”

So caught up was I in my assigned role as ingénue that I was perfectly willing to entertain the possibility that another book on the same subject had come out simultaneously and I’d somehow missed it. He was already telling me about the very important book–with that smug look I know so well in a man holding forth, eyes fixed on the fuzzy far horizon of his own authority.

Here, let me just say that my life is well-sprinkled with lovely men, with a long succession of editors who have, since I was young, listened and encouraged and published me, with my infinitely generous younger brother, with splendid friends of whom it could be said–like the Clerk in The Canterbury Tales I still remember from Mr. Pelen’s class on Chaucer–“gladly would he learn and gladly teach.” Still, there are these other men, too. So, Mr. Very Important was going on smugly about this book I should have known when Sallie interrupted him to say, “That’s her book.” Or tried to interrupt him anyway.

But he just continued on his way. She had to say, “That’s her book” three or four times before he finally took it in. And then, as if in a nineteenth-century novel, he went ashen. That I was indeed the author of the very important book it turned out he hadn’t read, just read about in the New York Times Book Review a few months earlier, so confused the neat categories into which his world was sorted that he was stunned speechless–for a moment, before he began holding forth again. Being women, we were politely out of earshot before we started laughing, and we’ve never really stopped.

I like incidents of that sort, when forces that are usually so sneaky and hard to point out slither out of the grass and are as obvious as, say, an anaconda that’s eaten a cow or an elephant turd on the carpet."

whiskyowl · 19/10/2017 12:24

NB I referred to this essay once before, a long time ago, and a woman on Mumsnet actually said "I've never heard of Rebecca Solnit, but she thinks a lot of herself doesn't she? So arrogant!"

!!!!!!!!!!!!

MillicentFawcett · 19/10/2017 12:35

Grin @whiskyowl - why doesn't that surprise me?!