To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

[PerryPerryThePlatypus]

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

I have 2 DDs and I certainly won’t be training them to view all men as potential rapists. But sadly there is the potential for a random man to be a danger to a woman at a deserted train station. So the risk is there and that’s why a man should not approach a strange woman on her own who clearly has no interest in talking.

As several women HAVE said on here that men should not strike up conversations with women as they could be perceived to be a threat

Can you quote where this has been said? Because it keeps being brought up again and again and I'm beginning to question my comprehension skills as I'm just not seeing it.

bertrand you have said you don't 'want' to treat men as potential attackers which implies that you do.

Others have said that they 'give off signals' to men who do try to talk to them on the assumption that the only reason a man would want to talk to them would be to 'harass' them etc.

mittens how does the man know the woman has no interest in talking before he tries to start the conversation?

Also most attacks are sadly domestic or with people you know 'date rape' etc. The chances of a random attack on a train station are pretty slim given CCTV etc.

frequency I'm doubting my comprehension skills too.

As several women HAVE said on here that men should not strike up conversations with women as they could be perceived to be a threat.

Again, I have only seen this argued against, never actually said to begin with?

A fair few people have said gendered conversations should not happen though. And it seems people read that as 'men should never speak to women'.

Or that men should not be approaching random isolated women in vulnerable situations. The train has been used a lot on this thread, but to use that as an example again...a woman on one end of the platform, a guy on the other. The guy really should not start making his way towards the woman to compliment her on her lovely shoes. As most women would find that situation very alarming.

On the other hand, if as in the example given of PPs DH who spoke to the woman next to him about the train being late, and this progressing into a conversation, thats very very different.

This is not the same as saying no bloke should ever speak to a woman. But that they should read social clues, and bear in mind the fact that a lot of women would be scared of that random bloke who is walking up to her, the bloke she does not know, who could be after anything. Maybe he IS just wanting a conversation. But there is a large chance that is not what he is wanting at all. Given most womens past experiences with many men. I also find it hard to believe with the example given, that the same man would be walking up the train platform just to speak to an isolated man. I really do. I know some will claim that this would happen regularly, I just don't believe it would.

It's from this document tara

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/an-overview-of-sexual-offending-in-england-and-wales

It makes for depressing reading.

I am having internet issues this morning, so if I vanish you all know why!

taratil - I saw Karen Ingala Smith speak at Feminism in London last week. Around 1/3 of the 140 or so women murdered every year by men are murdered by men they don't know. So it's a fairly sizeable number.

And I think you're being a bit disingenuous with your 'how does the man know the woman has no interest in talking' schtick. He can read body language. If there's eye contact at the announcement that the next five trains have been cancelled, then okay to start chatting. If she makes it clear she doesn't really want to chat, then he stops.

Come on. This stuff really isn't that hard.

And if your DH has ASD like your son and is incapable of reading that body language, tell him not to approach women he doesn't know. Shouldn't be a problem though as most men I know with ASD (including my own son) wouldn't dream of approaching a random stranger in the first place.

Do you have any other arguments?

bertrand you have said you don't 'want' to treat men as potential attackers which implies that you do."

Did you read the rest of my post?

Thanks whisky I'm going to have to disappear to do some work in a minute.

This morning I'm drafting a claim for a woman who returned from work after maternity leave to find her job had 'disappeared'. Sadly happens too often.

millicent why the shutting down. I haven't tried to shut down any single person on here?

I have plenty of arguments that don't just concern eye contact and signals. Have you read them, you've only picked out one thing?

Bertand yes the rest of the post said that men should modify their behaviour because of how you/ people feel. I take it to mean that behaviour modification is not to talk to women because they might feel worried. If I've misinterpreted that then I'm sorry.

Me -
As several women HAVE said on here that men should not strike up conversations with women as they could be perceived to be a threat

Can you quote where this has been said? Because it keeps being brought up again and again and I'm beginning to question my comprehension skills as I'm just not seeing it.

Well, here's two for starters where the conversation the other poster's husband had at the train station shouldn't have started just because he's a man.
question -
"I'm wondering how some people met their partners if they don't ever like random men speaking to them."
answer - In all the places where it's entirely appropriate for strangers to speak to each other. Like-not in a deserted station at midnight.

also
because how do I know if a strange man approaching me is going to be friendly or aggressive? I would rather he didn't approach me at all, because I'd be nervous regardless of his intentions.

oK, Tara- you're doing the selective reading thing. It is you deliberately misunderstanding not me miscommunications. Fair enough. At least it means I don't have to explain myself again. I'm off to the pub.

taratill, I don’t even understand why a man would talk to a woman in that situation. There’s just no reason to. I’m not saying he’s necessarily got sinister intentions, but I have my own issues because of my past so unfortunately it would unnerve me, though.

Surely men with any sensitivity will be aware of what a woman might think in those circumstances. If he needs to ask about a delayed train, then from my POV, I wouldn’t object if he said, ‘Excuse me, can I ask you something?’ That wouldn’t be gender related at all. But making small talk just isn’t appropriate IMO.

millicent I also said most attacks are by known people.

Karen Ingla Smith supports that proposition by saying a third are by unknown predators. I'm not great at maths but that still means that most attacks are from people who are known to the victim.

taratill, I don’t even understand why a man would talk to a woman in that situation. There’s just no reason to

Well, if you're using that logic, there's never any reason to speak to anyone, ever when out and about.
Man or woman, eyes down, mind your own, keep quiet.
A woman at the train station shouldn't ever talk to another woman then because there was no reason to speak in the first place.

betrand where is the selective reading. What do you mean?

If you mean men should read cues then completely agree (I guess you may mean that by 'delicate compliments') but it's not entirely clear because you say men should stop trying to make new friends which equally suggests that some might not be doing so to make delicate compliments.

Enjoy the pub.

Because there are lots of people putting thoughtful and nuanced arguments on this thread and being responded to with "Why are you saying that no man should speak to any woman ever?" "Why are you viewing all men as potential artackers?" It's so frustrating!

Mitten I'm sorry you have your own issues that make you feel like that.

krytens - you are fine with men approaching you and complimenting you in an isolated place. Other women are not and would rather those men didn't do it. There is a difference of opinion and attitude here. Neither side is right or wrong, it is just a difference. Do you not think, though, that men should be aware that some women feel a bit threatened by a random stranger approaching them, and bear that in mind when considering whether to do so? I mean, it's a pretty anti-social person who goes around the world voluntarily causing people alarm and fear, isn't it? I'm not saying men shouldn't approach women, but that they should do so bearing in mind a culture of pervasive harassment, and that they should be listen to the woman's responses, and not be offended if she chooses not to engage at any length.

As I said before, I think approach depends on the context. I don't know many women who wouldn't be at least a little alarmed if they were walking down a deserted street at night and were approached by a bloke who then said "You look really hot in that dress".

Because it's boring. Because you know this. Because you're doing exactly what Perry suggested in her OP. And because I can't believe a purportedly intelligent educated woman doesn't understand the issues at play.

betrand ok take your point. I'm not disagreeing with the vast majority of people on here who are saying that men should pick up social clues and not talk where it is not wanted. I'm just saying that to the extent to which some posters have suggested it's just best for men not to talk to women and that they (men) deserve it really because of the way that women have been treated by some men, that I don't agree with.

It just doesn't achieve anything.

millicient what issues don't I understand? I'm actually agreeing with most people.

Asking what the approach of some is supposed to achieve is a totally valid question?

Also, just a note - millicent's stats are on murder - not attacks, actual murders. That's a very different thing to street harassment. Just by its very nature, street harassment is far more like to come from strangers than people known to the women who suffer it!