To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

[PerryPerryThePlatypus]

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

rufus: "Are they too stupid to realise that they are not sharing"

I think they are entitled and oppressive. I also think they are helped by a strange, liberal individualist discourse that treats waged work like it is a discrete, hermetically sealed thing that happens in the office, and ignores all the auxiliary support work that enables someone to get to the office and to function while they are there. Marx isn't brilliant on this, but he has a term for it - he calls it the "work of social reproduction", pointing out that for someone to get to the office to be paid for their 8 hour day, there has to be a load of washing, cleaning, food shopping and childcare outside of those 8 hours that is unwaged, yet absolutely necessary for the capitalist system to perpetuate itself. (Because it needs new generations of workers to replace the old). The wage effectively HAS to cover the cost of social reproduction for the system to work - therefore women who choose to stay at home doing unwaged work to support a waged partner are absolutely entitled to that wage. It does not "belong" to the party working, who then doles out pin money by grace and favour to the party who isn't. Both of them are contributing.

bumbley - maybe a temporal frame helps with this?

In the present, we live in a society where harassment, assault and rape are at epidemic proportions. In a context like that, a man approaching a woman to chat can easily be interpreted as the start of a threat, particularly if it occurs late at night or in an area where the woman is isolated from social or public protection.

In the future, should we move to a more ideal society where harassment, assault and rape are rare because women are no longer objectified and treated as second class citizens, free discussion between male and female strangers will not be threatening, and approaches from one sex to another will not appear as a potential threat.

I think it's really important for women like you to say that. Because so many people say normalising stuff like "Men can't cook/can't see dirt" in a manner that implies "So we just have to accept it". Saying "I'm married to a guy who does his share, does it well, and doesn't moan about doing it" is a powerful statement in a context like that.

Yes, such a common view and really doesn't help matters at all. DH does near all the housework and childcare. Mainly as I have a long term illness mind, but even before I got ill he did his fair share without being 'nagged' into it or anything.

I do think things on the whole will get better in time. As the next generation is raised, maybe the dinosaur attitudes will die out more.

horny this is getting a bit circular.

Yes men should read the signals.

I think it's sad that women give off signals because they assume that every man who ever wants to do so does so for wrong intentions. It's not my experience.

I asked DH about it last night. The last time he started a conversation with a woman was at a train station, he was late coming home from work and 3 trains in a row were delayed. He commented on that to her and they struck up a conversation about the state of trains etc. He would have said the same had it been a man it was next to. That conversation would have been shut down by many on here on the assumption my DH had ulterior motives.

I get that you think that DH should not have that conversation with a strange woman on the station but I genuinely think that's quite sad.

Why are men apparently really chatty and friendly to women but not men?

Because other men would think they are gay. Men don't talk to woman or compliment them because they want to fuck them. They just want to be friends but if they tried to be friends with other men, those men would assume they want to fuck them. But it's not sexual, it's friendly.

Those who are arguing men's case for them, do you have daughters? I'm asking because once your daughters reach the age of eleven-ish and men start wanting to be 'friends' with them, you might find their behaviour more insidious than friendly.

My daughter was barely out of primary school when men started wanting to be friends with her by yelling compliments about her body out of their car windows.

Do all of these men actually want to have sex with a pre-teen child? No. Should any of them be viewing her as a sexual object regardless of whether they want to have sex with her? No.

And it is men. Plural. It happens fairly regularly

I'd also like to know where I said men should never talk to women? Or that women never want to talk to men? Of course men can talk to women. They can talk to women in the same way they'd talk to men. It's unlikely that a man would disturb another man on a train, so they shouldn't disturb women in that way. If two men are walking their dogs and they happen to have a similar breed of dog, it's quite likely that they will chat about the thing they have in common. It's also acceptable to chat to women who have the same breed of dog. It's not rocket science and as pointed out men are not stupid. They are capable of understanding this.

In the present, we live in a society where harassment, assault and rape are at epidemic proportions. In a context like that, a man approaching a woman to chat can easily be interpreted as the start of a threat, particularly if it occurs late at night or in an area where the woman is isolated from social or public protection.

In the future, should we move to a more ideal society where harassment, assault and rape are rare because women are no longer objectified and treated as second class citizens, free discussion between male and female strangers will not be threatening, and approaches from one sex to another will not appear as a potential threat.

Yes yes yes. Change, especially on such a huge level takes time though. In the meantime I don't think it is unreasonable at all to ask men to think a little about how they may be perceived, even if their intentions are pure. They know that their sex (as a whole) is a risk to females. The ones who actually do care, should surely have no issue with treating women the same as they would a man. As they wouldn't treat a woman differently solely as she is a woman anyway. The ones who do have an issue with this, were never 'just trying to be friendly' and are definitely not 'the nice guys'

whisky where is the evidence that rape, harassment and assault are currently at epidemic proportions?

I think it's sad that women give off signals because they assume that every man who ever wants to do so does so for wrong intentions. It's not my experience.

Women don't give off signals as they assume that every man has bad intentions though. Do you know any woman who thinks all men want to attack her? I certainly don't. I know many women who would be very wary of a lone man approaching her in an isolated setting though, because enough men DO have bad intentions for it to be a widespread problem.

frequency yes I have a daughter. Yes I will teach her to be careful but I will not teach her not to talk to men/ boys because they probably want to attack her. I just will not.

I will teach her she is equal to men. She is.

Talk about trying to polarise society by saying you are as good as but don't talk to them they are out to attack you.

I’m sorry, whisky, infertility is horrible, I’ve been through that.

I’ve been thinking about this and one thing that needs to change is the promotion of gender stereotypes. I saw this when buying a birthday card for my DD2’s friend (my 2 DDs are adopted). This friend likes boys toys, and I wanted to find a birthday card for a little girl that wasn’t about Disney princesses. It was impossible! I couldn’t believe the gender stereotyping. I’ll buy her a superhero toy, as her mum suggested, but what is it with birthday cards?!

How are we supposed to teach boys to have respect for women when they grow up? Gender stereotyping is everywhere!

I get that you think that DH should not have that conversation with a strange woman on the station but I genuinely think that's quite sad.

OK. You seem to not be understanding me at all. Why do you think that I would say your DH should never have spoken to that woman in a friendly manner, the same as he would if she had been a bloke? I assume if the woman had seemed nervous or ignored him, he would have left her well alone? I also assume, if they had been at opposite ends of the platform and it had taken a walk to reach her, he would not have trekked down to approach this stranger just to comment on the delayed trains?

I don;t know if I am just not making myself clear, or if people are misunderstanding me on purpose tbh. I have never once said no man should ever speak to a woman he doesn't know. not once.

Exactly frequency

Right im going out for a coffee and a bit of a shop

So while i am gone i agree with whatever frequency, horny and bertrand et al say

Thanks

I also have a son. He has ASD and has just started high school. There is a girl at high school who has teased him for wearing glasses and being a nerd. He retaliated by saying she was ginger and spotty (I talked to him about freckles).

Later on instagram she asked him if he'd care if she died. He typed No (probably because of his literal interpretation). She instigated that conversation.

I have suggested he delete her on instagram because he is not good at social communication and tends to say what he thinks. He's not treating her differently from how he would treat a boy (at the moment he is blissfully unaware - not for much longer though I reckon).

I don't want a scenario where he is misconstrued which could so easily happen.

Social media is a massive massive problem.

Horny I'm not misunderstanding you. You and I agree. There are PPs who have suggested that any approach is unacceptable.

I don't think I have actually seen anyone on this thread say a man should never ever under any circumstance speak to a woman either. I have seen people arguing against this view, but not the actual view being posted in the first place :S

tara - context is everything, isn't it?

I've had approaches from blokes that have been deeply threatening, to the point that within 30 seconds I have been totally panicking. When I was 22, I got stuck on a tube late at night with a guy who was absolutely explicitly threatening violence and making all kinds of comments about how I looked, and I was really, really frightened - too scared even to get up and pull the panic lever because I thought it might trigger him to attack me. The wretched train was stuck in a tunnel for about 10 minutes too.

I've also been approached by random blokes for a chat that clearly has just been friendly. At the start of the approach, though, there's always been this flicker of uncertainty - a moment that where I am assessing what he wants and whether he's a threat. Usually it's resolved very quickly, but it's there nonetheless. I don't know whether men are aware of this. I don't think they are. They ought to be.

Even when a guy isn't a threat, there is a big difference between one conversation and another. A dialogue is a situation where both sides listen to the other, and clear space for the other to speak. However, in many cases what even sexually unthreatening men actually offer is a monologue about their own concerns, lives and cares that simply reduces the female listener to a blank interlocutor. I don't actually see why women should be expected to have these one-sided conversations, to act as foils for men and to reflect back to them a nice version of themselves so that they leave with an enhanced sense of self-worth, while simultaneously diminishing the female participant to an everywoman mirror to reflect back a narcissistic self-portrait. It takes energy, and it does damage because the woman just isn't being allowed to be fully present.

I am the kind of person people talk to a LOT. I also have loads of people who are complete strangers who think they recognise me. I must just have a very common kind of face. I used to feel obliged to be that passive listener for men. I don't any more and I find that men get very annoyed by the fact that I dare to express opinions or positions that are different from theirs.

"Ummm... but several people here don't want everyone to be treated the same. They want to treat men as potential ateackers and advise them not to approach women in case they scare them. confused"

i don't want to treat men as potential attackers (and incidentally, the use of the word "attackers" is very emotive- we're mostly talking unwelcome attention that does not involve actual violence) But while a significant number of men do behave like dicks, I think that non-dick men should take on board women's experience and modify their behaviour until such time that the dickish behaviour has become so socially unacceptable that it no longer happens And a lot of this is up to men. They need to call other men out, be mindful of their own behaviour, model awareness and sensitivity to their children. In short, step up And if that means they have to stop seeking to make new friends by approaching women deserted railway stations at midnight and paying them delicate compliments then so be it

whisky that issue on the tube sounds awful.

I just don't seem to experience those one sided conversations.
I would avoid a man (or a woman) who was so self obsessed as to converse in that way. If a man (or woman) made me feel as though I shouldn't have an opinion I would tell him what I thought of him, again I've not had much personal experience of that specifically from men.

Talk about trying to polarise society by saying you are as good as but don't talk to them they are out to attack you

Again, I never said this. Men can talk to women the same way they would speak to other men. No woman believes all men are out to attack her and no mother would teach her daughter that.

But men who invade women's space in ways they would never impose upon another man are wrong and they need to stop.

It's not about not talking to women. It's about treating them in the same way they'd treat another man.

Bertrand get all that but what do you suggest happens in the meantime that all men 'know' not to talk to all women. It just doesn't seem realistic. Isn't that going to create a further divide?

Sorry if the word attack seems emotive (I can see why it does but it wasn't intentional) It was short hand for rape, harass or assault.

tara - there are loads of depressing stats, but some that stand out

• there are 11 rapes an hour in England and Wales. 85,000 women a year.
• 500,000 women are sexually assaulted in England and Wales each year. A third of university students report being inappropriately touched.
• Harassment is far higher than either of these two categories - recent surveys found that 52% of women had been harassed at work and 85% of young women had experienced street harassment.

I'd say it's an epidemic.

"Talk about trying to polarise society by saying you are as good as but don't talk to them they are out to attack you"

Tara- this is a genuine question. Do you think anyone on here has said, or believes this? Because I for one, feel as if I have explained my position about a million times ( apologies for hyperbole) and it is not that. Or anything like that. And you're a lawyer, so obviously used to understanding written stuff. Which leaves two posdibilities. Either I am much worse at expressing myself than I think I am or you are for some reason that escapes me deliberately misinterpreting. I have no idea which it is.

whisky yes I can see that. 11 rapes an hour is astonishing. Where has that figure come from?

Bertrand get all that but what do you suggest happens in the meantime that all men 'know' not to talk to all women. It just doesn't seem realistic. Isn't that going to create a further divide?

Sweet baby cheesus, no-one is saying men should never talk to women. Ever.

Men should be as mindful of women as they are of other men. That is all.

If you wouldn't talk to a man in that situation, don't approach a woman in that situation.

Have you ever spotted a man sit by another man on an empty train? Or interrupt another man when he's reading? How about walk out of his way to compliment another man?

Men are capable of understanding acceptable social boundaries, they demonstrate this behaviour towards other men so why are we so flabberghasted at the suggestion they demonstrate this behaviour to women?

Why do you think that I would say your DH should never have spoken to that woman in a friendly manner, the same as he would if she had been a bloke?

I'm not the person you're addressing, but of the same mindset.
Are you reading a completely different thread or something? As several women HAVE said on here that men should not strike up conversations with women as they could be perceived to be a threat.