To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

[PerryPerryThePlatypus]

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

Pumper, its disagreeing that all men are . That doesn't mean that there isn't a problem with the men who are a particular way or that the poster is 'wrong' to have a problem with certain behaviour.

@humanGnomeProject I don't get what you're saying. It's not luck that you haven't been assaulted, so it's because of something you've done to prevent it?

Pumper - she wasn't talking about how widespread a problem male harassment is. Her post wasn't 'AIBU to think male harrassment is a problem' was it?

Just talking

*Can you explain why my having to accept unwanted behaviour from men isn't oppression

Do you realize that you didn't actually answer what I asked you only reiterated that I have to accept unwanted behaviour from men*

I get why men talking to us can be unnerving especially if we’ve been through unpleasant experiences in the past. (I feel this way myself.) But it could be that the man in question is not being a pervert and just wants to chat. Just don’t engage. It doesn’t have to be about oppression every time someone wants talk to you.

I don’t want to offend, I feel threatened myself as well.

humanGnomeProject I'm lucky

l'm lucky that when I was groped at work and my manager told me to put up and shut up I had enough financial freedom to quit.

I was lucky that in situations where men have told me on public transport what they would do to me I could just tell them to fuck off and I didn't get hit for it.

I'm lucky that my rapist was my husband and although he was vile and cruel he didn't physically hurt me too much.

There are different degrees of luck

"Pumper, its disagreeing that all men are "

It's that refusal failure to understand what a class argument is again.

Genuine question, do people who identify themselves as feminists actually like any men? Do you like your husbands/partners/sons.

Some of the comments such as from assassinated 'many men now and historically do not treat women like human beings' makes me wonder how (if this is how you feel) you can like men at all.

I'm not saying I don't agree that there is institutional sexism particularly in the working environment but 'not treating like human beings' is very emotive language.

My mother in law uses language like this and uses it as an excuse to treat the males in her family with contempt, including her son (my husband) and her grandson - my lovely 11 year old.

should say like 'any' men at all.

"But it could be that the man in question is not being a pervert and just wants to chat."

And, presumably hasn't even noticed that the person he fancies a chat eith is a woman, and would have behaved exactly the same to a man?

But bumbley nobody is saying that every single man is doing it, they are saying that enough men are doing it that it's a problem and the solution to dealing with that problem lies with men. And your second post, I've lost track of which thread we're talking about - the creep one was about harassment, yes, so it basically was that title. The meme one was to make men think before approaching women, so could also be considered as about male harassment.

Is it really just semantics?

"Genuine question, do people who identify themselves as feminists actually like any men? Do you like your husbands/partners/sons."

I don't think for a minute it is a genuine question, but on the offchance that it is, yes, I like a lot of men and love a few.

Yes, I think genuinely so, BertrandRussell, though the conversation would have been about their favourite football team. Men have other interests besides sex, surprisingly.

I have spoken about bad experiences with men myself, so I’m not disputing people’s experiences.

Mittens1969 It's not the talking to me that is oppresive but being told I need to accept behaviour I do not like that is the issue. It's that my right to be left alone is secondary to a man's right to try to talk to me. If I'm huddled into myself, avoiding eye contact etc etc a man really doesn't need to try to strike up a conversation to know I'm not interested.

Of course I don't treat any of the men in my personal life with contempt. Why on earth would I? I am fortunate that my dad, brother, partner, friends are all decent men and they have never done anything to change my opinion on that. I have small sons that I love beyond words. That doesn't stop me recognising that many other men are not like the ones in my personal life. I have met other men that have not been decent people.

Betrand why on earth would it not be a genuine question? What do you think it is if not genuine?

Bert, just because you are happy making generalisations about an entire sex doesn't mean we all have to be. You may very well be happy with that understanding on the feminist board but we don't all have to go along with it because you think it's the 'right' way to do something.

It's often the start of "you're all man haters/lesbian separatists" etc. The idea that you can see the issues that exist whilst also not hating all men seems impossible to grasp for some.

Yes, there is also a group that is really OTT about it who turn mole hills into mountains.

@AssassinatedBeauty

No, I'm saying that in order to be lucky you need something to happen (or not) when the odds are against you.

Nothing to do with me preventing assault or other people not doing enough to prevent it.

Well said @Mittens1969

Just because someone is triggered, it doesn't mean the triggerer acted in what would be classed as an inappropriate manner.

Thanks Assassinated so assuming that most peoples experience of the men in their lives are positive it's not odd to assume that some posters have not had experience of men behaving badly, is it?

To be honest with you I think my MIL is a law unto herself. The way she treats the men in her life is disgusting, feminist or not.

Pumper. Are you really 'so basically-ing'? It's funny, I think if people mean a certain thing or want to write things a particular way then they will do just that and not hide it behind an obscure title that uses an insult towards most of a particular sex.

I think it’s not oppression in that context. Some men are pretty clueless in reading body language IMO, they genuinely don’t get it. Insensitive for sure, but they’re not trying to oppress you. There is such a thing as paranoia.

I don't know what you mean by 'so-basically', does that mean I'm being basic? I might be.

If the poster had written 'AIBU to think that men harassing women is a massive problem and most women have suffered some form of unwelcome attention from a man?' would you still feel like you had to defend men?

Look I'm not accusing those men of oppression at all what I am saying is that the attitude that men can't help it, men are clueless and don't know any better, women just need to accept it is institutional oppression. Telling women to make allowances for men is demeaning to both men and women.