To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

[PerryPerryThePlatypus]

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

The thing is, people are entitled to express their opinion (as long as they are not breaking the law by doing so). I find the handmaiden-type views and victim-blaming comments abhorrent too, but I don't see how you can stop it. Maybe some of those posters are MRAs masquerading as men, but tbh there are plenty of women who do think like that too.
As for the 'not accepting others' points of view ' thing - well, people don't have to accept others' points of view if they don't want to. I'm sure most people have at least a few topics on which they have a very definite opinion and would not bow graciously to contradiction.

Now we are getting somewhere. Basically you are coming across as saying my rights are secondary. That's the point of this thread too much dismissing of how some women feel is going on.

I'm not seeing namalt posters changing their views so I fail to see why they expect it of others.

Perhaps it is very hard to see what the problem is and the scale of it if you've never experienced any kind of sexual assault or harassment.

Basically you are coming across as saying my rights are secondary.

No, just let's all treat each other like human beings and not "us versus them."
Talking - absolutely fine.
Harassing - absolutely not.

'm not seeing namalt posters changing their views so I fail to see why they expect it of others.
But that's not what is happening.
What is happening is the the op makes a statement. Another poster disagrees with them. Op and friends personally attack the poster, not bothering with intellectually dealing with point raised . where does a discussion after that?

"The thing is, people are entitled to express their opinion"

All opinion? On MN? That's news to me.

Go ahead and tell one of those MRAs that your sincere opinion is that he is an asshole and see what happens.

"What is happening is the the op makes a statement. Another poster disagrees with them. Op and friends personally attack the poster, not bothering with intellectually dealing with point raised . where does a discussion after that?"

Can you say which poster you're talking about? The one who disagrees with the OP, I mean - so I can go back over the thread and see how it happened.

let's all treat each other like human beings

The problem here is that many men, now and historically, do not treat women like human beings. It hasn't been and isn't an even playing field, and to ignore the context is wrong. It would be lovely if we could all treat each other like human beings. Unfortunately many men don't behave that way towards women and a lot of the rest don't care about that or challenge it. It is reasonable and rational for some/many women to be wary/cautious/fearful about men in certain situations where other women wouldn't be. It's wrong to suggest that women who are wary/cautious/fearful of men in those situations are being unfair, prejudiced or similar.

I've been surprised at the number of posts I've seen about the recent revelations in Hollywood where posters are essentially asking people to stop talking about it, minimising it as an issue, blaming women for causing the problems, focus on men's problems instead and so on.

Talking - absolutely fine.
Harassing - absolutely not.

Talking isn't fine if the person doesn't want to be talked to. The same behaviour is not always appropriate in all situations with all people. I do not have to enjoy the same things in life that you do, we are all different.

Can you explain why my having to accept unwanted behaviour from men isn't oppression

Talking isn't fine if the person doesn't want to be talked to

How do you know someone doesn't want to be spoken to if you aren't to speak in the first place?!
Striking up conversation - fine.
Not taking cues to shut up and go away - not fine.

Do men just go up to other men on deserted railway stations and just "strike up conversations"?

I believe you Krytens that absolutely nothing has ever happened to you - although surely you must have observed another woman being catcalled or a friend must have shared a negative experience with you. I also think you have a very charmed life to never have the guy at work who only addressed your breasts or seen a flasher or met the dodgy bus driver as a school kid but I do believe you when you say this is your experience. It is depressing how hard it is for most of us to believe that a woman could actually live like this.

Just because someone hasn't experienced it, doesn't mean their truth is any less than yours.

That cuts both ways. Your experience is yours but in a discussion about the utter prevalence of micro, minor and major male assaults against women where most women post that not only has it happened them but they literally don't know a woman it hasn't happened to, your experience doesn't negate theirs. In other words you didn't experience it but the majority of the rest of us did so I'm sure you recognise that means there is an enormous problem that is worth discussing and your anomalous experience is not the norm and not really the subject under discussion.

We should be discussing ways to make sure that everyone else's experience is just like yours - ways that don't depend on luck alone.

Can you explain why my having to accept unwanted behaviour from men isn't oppression

Do you realize that you didn't actually answer what I asked you only reiterated that I have to accept unwanted behaviour from men

@Rufustherenegadereindeer1\

No. Not every poster. NAPALT? (see the irony?)

@PerryPerryThePlatypus

"Stop minimising and belittling."

I didn't. I disagreed. You're showing your inability to accept other people's differing opinions. Again.

@Bertrand

"How do you know that the posters concerned haven't considered other people's contributions very carefully but decided they hold to their original opinion?"

I see your posts and know exactly what I'm going to read. I don't for a second believe you give others the consideration you expect or think you deserve.

@BaronessEllaSaturday

"Talking isn't fine if the person doesn't want to be talked to."

But it's not really an issue that concerns me. The opposite of 'fine is some equally bland adjective. I am frequently approached when out of work by people who want to discuss work things with me. I don't claim harassment. It makes me wonder how many of @whiskyowl 's 1s are actually 3s.

Do men just go up to other men on deserted railway stations and just "strike up conversations"?

Absolutely. They also shout out to random men in the street "cheer up love it might never happen"

BertrandRussell

Yes, but particularly late on a weekend night.

I think my last post about the behaviour of my gynae is a good example. I naively expected a discourse on the pros / cons of complaining to the hospital - I didn't expect attacks on my character and posters telling me I'm unable to read facial expressions. So much hostility it felt very much like I was under fire simply for daring to have a vagina.

I have suspected similar...

Pumper, "bumbley but saying not all men or women too isn't disagreeing - it's saying 'you are wrong, this isn't a problem that men have to deal with'."

No it isn't.

Rufus, I don't think that would have made people feel as defensive.

To go back to the title of the op. If you don't, genuinely don't see or feel or experience any oppression at all for being a woman, what good do you think you do insisting to other women that they have to agree with you that namalt, that the men in your life are nice, that it's silly to be afraid of men in potentially vulnerable situations, that women are abusive too, that x is much worse for whichever group of not-women? It's not a difference of opinion it's either a completely different life experience which can't be argued with one way or another or a wilful disregard of the content of what other people say to argue the semantics of some of the qualifying words e.g. The difference between some/ most/ all when applied to men as a class.

If I'd avoided assault and harassment I'd be thanking my lucky stars and offering empathy to those that had, not arguing with them over every little detail.

@HandbagKrabby

I don't think I'm lucky not to have been assulted. Do you get that?

bumbley what is it then?

Nah- it's just other women disagreeing.

In my family I have a mother who is a surrendered wife, doesn't believe in equal pay or go to University.

I also have a sister who doesn't think women should have political positions, or be CEOs, vicars, truly believes that men are here to protect, women to serve.

I guess that if I have two women who think this way in my family there must be more out there or on these forums.

Handbag, I think it's how it's presented. Saying that you've had a horrible experience and it's left you feeling a particular way is less likely to get replies from people defending men than something like All/most men are . Saying something is^ a certain way is going to attract people who haven't had that experience challenging that opinion.

Sorry again, bumbley, I'm trying to do too many things at once. I meant - what is the point of saying NAMALT to a poster talking about how widespread the problem of male harassment is?