I think the golden rule for men should be...

[brasty]

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dr

Sorry for being such a wimpy drama queen but why do they keep pleading ignorance and twisting what is being said? Is that part of the fun? Or just an essential element in maintaining the status quo?

I dont know

It happens on all sorts of mumsnet threads to be fair

But i dont get it...its not like a conversation where you might not quite remember correctly, its in black and white

dr

It's exhausting.

But suddenly we're all talking about it in public. It's being publicly acknowledged and denied and dismissed and trivialised obvs but Rome wasn't built in a day This is new.

dr it is exhausting, and it's boring hearing the same worn out phrases used every time to minimise and dismiss.

I liked the sketch in the OP. It was amusing and, in small way, encouraging.

Firstly arranged marriage & forced marriage are two different things (i worked in Slough for 8 years, where forced marriage and honour-based violence was prevelant...but not necessarily the norm).

Secondly, yes, don't say anything to a woman you wouldn't want The Rock, your prison inmate, your rapist / abuser / domestic violence perpetrater (men can be victims too you know) to say to you.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with talking to a stranger in public, being nice, friendly or approachable with others. The problem starts when you aren't nice, friendly or approachable ie you act like a d**khead around other people; whether you're male or female. EVERYONE deserves respect - that's it. Respect people first, be a Harvey W type (or paler comparison) second, when you know you've cleared it with that person that they consent to that.

"Secondly, yes, don't say anything to a woman you wouldn't want The Rock, your prison inmate, your rapist / abuser / domestic violence perpetrater (men can be victims too you know) to say to you."

Or how about, if your're a man, don't say anything to a woman you don't know that you would not say to a man you don't know in the same circumstances. It seems to me to be setting the bar rather low to suggest not saying anything to a woman that you would not say to a person already proven to be violent.....

It's not a case of men wanting sex or sexual attention and not being clever or polite enough to tell the difference between consent and non-consent. As a pp pointed out, there are plenty of ways of pursuing consensual sexual relations which are far more likely to be successful than scaring people in train carriages etc etc. The whole point of this behaviour is that it's nonconsensual. That's what provides the thrill and the sense of power.

I can safely say I've never met a man who I've had a friendship with because he's approached me on public transport/ on a street/ queuing etc etc. If that's truly what these poor misunderstood men are looking for it has a shit return rate for them and perhaps they should look elsewhere for company. I've been propositioned or rubbed up against or threatened or sworn at or harrassed or wanked at in these situations by men though.

I had an experience of man who sat across the train seats from me at the opposite side so he would have had to lunge over to touch me. This was mid afternoon on the way back from a meeting there was plenty spaces for him to sit but he’d clocked me and decided he wanted to chat. He was very polite talked about the weather that he had just finished whatever he’d been working on and was looking forward a break kinda non descriptive chat. He then was getting off the train and placed a business card on my table and said if I was single and every fancied it to drop him a text then got off the train. If you like the look of someone there is easy enough ways to chat without terrifying them and I felt this was acceptable enough. This was still weird enough but iv looked at plenty of my male counterparts and thought, they are attractive, look interesting or think oh iv read that book but iv never once talked to one of them.

If he had tried to sit beside me I’d have instantly freaked out and moved (due to several horrible bus experiences as a teen)

Again though as pp have said it’s not about these experiences its about the ones that are in your personal space, touch you without consent, talk to you like you are an object and worse. They don’t do this to try and take you out for a drink and talk footy, they do this for their own kicks and no regard to your feelings at all.

Respect people first, be a Harvey W type (or paler comparison) second, when you know you've cleared it with that person that they consent to that

What does this even mean? Be polite to a stranger at first then sexually assault them once you've gotten to know them? Do you understand the Harvey W case? They DIDNT consent, that's the whole point.

Another aspect of it is this entitlement on behalf of men to women's attention - not even sex or the likelihood of a date, but a refusal to accept a woman ignoring the fact that there is a man present. With some men, it's more along the lines of: they can't entertain themselves but the woman they have just spotted has a social duty to entertain them; to listen to their tedious stories and stroke their egos. If she isn't already dancing attention on a man (because that is the only proper use of her time) then she must be made to do so.

Like the way a certain type of man will walk into a place full of women (not a designated women-only space, just eg a room at work, or a group of women talking to each other in a bar) and not leave until he has made every single woman in the room acknowledge him.

When I was discussing strangers on trains with DP yesterday, he volunteered a long boring story about his commute a couple of hours previously. He'd been sat at a table in a carriage with 1 man & 2 women (all strangers to each other). The man sat down and immediately shanghaied the women into looking up train info for him on their devices, even though he had one of his own. One woman was trying to work, the other doing her best to be helpful. DP was going the same way so intervened to give the man all the information he needed in the hope everyone would shut up so he could concentrate on his series The man ignored him and continued to claim the women's attention, and later in the journey looked up the info himself anyway.

I mention it because as a situation it's so recognisable and yet so tedious and unmemorable that i can't put my finger on any specific example of the hundreds of times it's happened to me. It's a good illustration of sgb's point

Yes Genghis good illustration.
Radio 1 just had a news beat item on the sexual harassment issue. Right before I switched off a man remarked on the worries about becoming "too PC" by outlawing wolf whistling and it got me thinking about the line in Pulp fiction when they're measuring the appropriateness or otherwise of giving Mrs Wallace a foot massage "would you give a man a foot massage?"
Anyway then the next item on the issue of sexual harassment was an interview with a man who had been sexually assaulted by a woman.

Genghis
Situation as illustrated by this picture that became quite the meme last year.

Do you think he i checking for nits??? You know just a concerned citizen lol.

This feed popped up on my Facebook account.

Good for her.

https://i-d.vice.com/enuk/article/xwgpdn/woman-taking-selfies-with-men-who-catcall-her?utmmcampaign=global&utmsource=idfbuk

I really don't like strangers and would prefer no-one talk to me. Ever. Male or female. People of any sex starting unwanted conversations with me makes me very uncomfortable.

Oddly, I rarely have issues with random women accosting me in coffee shops or forcing themselves into my space to be 'friendly'

Women tend to go away a lot quicker when they receive one word replies to their friendliness. And they never comment on my eyes, breasts or ass to be 'nice'. A woman has never interrupted me mid-chapter to ask what book I'm reading (here's a tip for the men folk who like trying that one - the title is on the cover)

All these men, who insist they are just 'being nice' etc must be missing something most women posses or they're just twats

Worth watching as a) a reminder of how its inherent in the system, and b) suggestion of what men could do www.ted.com/talks/jackson_katz_violence_against_women_it_s_a_men_s_issue#t-9665

I'm sure many of you have seen it, but always worth a view. And show it you men you know

Yy cockicidal the expression on her face is spot on

And what is it with reading a book in public? its like it's the public transport equivalent of wearing a very short skirt in a nightclub