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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 16:43

www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=329981

This is a perfect example of a MRA. This member, thetruth. In this thread he shows how MRAs act, and his hatred towards women. In previous threads he always brings the topic around to blame women, and has copy paste responses also that ALWAYS have a go at females. A search on his name will shock most people, the pure hatred for females. And this guy apparently owns a taxi business and employs women also. Though I doubt that a lot, as with his pure hatred and bile for women, I can't imagine many women would stay working for him.

SecondHandSnake · 15/10/2017 16:48

YANBU.

Trump, Savile, Weinstein, that cunt who killed the toddler, Levi Bellfield, Ian Huntley, Michael Jackson, Gary Glitter, all involved in Haute de la Garenne... all of it, I read about it and ask myself what the fuck is wrong with men? And it's almost without exception men who perpetrate sex crimes.

Disgusting.

But then I think of my darling dad and my lovely brother and my kind, wonderful husband and my baby son and I just can't believe they'd ever do anything like that. But maybe they would...?

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 16:48

I have never understood this comment, why is it women don't have to correct their sons, fathers and brothers bad behaviour when they see it but men do?

I think you’re wilfully misinterpreting my comment.

It’s not up to women as a collective to correct the way men, as a collective, harm women. It seems that women are the only ones wanting to stop men hurting them, and this shouldn’t be the way.

HandbagKrabby · 15/10/2017 16:51

I reckon half the men I know are sexist and they range through lots of different age ranges and social classes. I don't get on with them the same as I used to because I can't be arsed pandering to it. In the past I might have said they weren't sexist but I think that's because I felt they saw me as an equal but from what I see now either they have changed or that wasn't true.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 16:54

Equally I have personally know some women who have tried to keep their children from estranged parties. Not because they were abusive, I know that because they admitted it wasn't because of that. Just because they wanted to.

Ah yes, the mythical woman who admits “he’s a perfectly good dad but I hate him so he can’t see the children”. I think she may be friends with the mythical person who says “I use abortion as contraception”. Both these women are spoken a lot about on MN.

Let me break it down for you - women are not the problem. If women were to stop sexually assaulting people, sexual assault would still be a problem. Now imagine if a man never sexually assaulted anyone again what a great world we’d live in. I’m sick of explaining to people that saying ‘women do it too’ is futile because it happens so infrequently and is an argument used to shut down women who have a problem with dangerous men.

specialsubject · 15/10/2017 17:01

I've been on the receivng end of two minor sexual assaults. One from a man and one from a woman.

So from my experience everyone is a bastard if we extrapolate.

What to do?

  • dont date creeps, and tell the creep and everyone around why
  • dont sleep with creeps
  • don't breed with creeps
  • call out and challenge all harassment and sexism ( and other discrimination) as a minor issue, that includes anyone going to strip shows, butler in the buff, all that shit as well as lapdance clubs.

Advice to be followed by everyone. Let's breed it out.

WingsofNylon · 15/10/2017 17:07

My 'lovely' parents in law gleefully visited a the and radio memorabilia museum because it was there mission to find some Jimmy Savile items. They were dead pleased with them selves when they finally found a tiny toy that had clearly been missed. they took a selfie with it and made some sort of comment about 'well you can't just wipe out history'...fuck i was so shocked I had to just walk out so that would see me cry.

I still wish I had confronted them.

This is only one of many many 'mild' anecdotes about 'nice' people not seeing how they are adding to a horrible culture of abuse and minimization.

RestlessTraveller · 15/10/2017 17:12

What a completely ridiculous post. Do you think that devastating hurricanes happen everyday because there’s been a couple in the news recently?

Unless of course you believe every thread on MN, where every man is a potential paedophile and a father can’t accompany his daughter to a party without being labelled as such.

Seriously misogyny is alive and kicking here, you need to have a break if you’re feeling like this.

geekone · 15/10/2017 17:13

The statistics on here are so very wrong. 85000 women raped in the U.K. Each year is not 1 in 10 women there are 66 million people in the U.K. at least half are female and 2/3 of those are over 18 (not that age makes a difference). 85000 women is 85000 to many but even if all those rapes are perpetrated by different men it's still only 0.4% of men who are rapists which leaves 99.6% of men not raping. Now this is also skewed as some women are raped repeatedly by the same man. It could be argued that over 20 years it is almost 1 in 10 but that's where statistics lie and can be used wrongly. YABU most men and most women are decent and honest and discrimination in whatever form and for whatever reason is not going to move society forward.

VioletCharlotte · 15/10/2017 17:14

It does feel like this sometimes I agree. It appalls me just how many men get away with abusing women.

However there are some fantastic men out there (including my Dad!)

Sadly all the ones I've had the misfortune to get involved with have been creeps though.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 17:14

Do you think that devastating hurricanes happen everyday because there’s been a couple in the news recently

No but women are raped every day and killed by men every week.

I agree about misogyny on this thread, this doesn’t quite match the first bit of your post though?

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 17:16

The statistics on here are so very wrong. 85000 women raped in the U.K. Each year is not 1 in 10 women there are 66 million people in the U.K.

rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php

Nearly half a million adults are sexually assaulted in England and Wales each year

Yes 85000 a year are raped. But half a million are sexually assaulted.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 17:17

geek you’d better tell Rape.org and the CPS that they’re wrong then, sure they can’t wait to hear from you.

1 in 5 crimes in the U.K. are violent crimes against women. About 19/20 of these are perpetrated by men. But yeah, it’s no biggy

crunched · 15/10/2017 17:24

The 3 sexual assaults on a 17 year old girl within an hour happened in East London (Tower Hamlets).
Don't want men of Birmingham to be blamed. Sorry Blush

Mittens1969 · 15/10/2017 17:40

I suspect the number of rapes and sexual assaults is also higher than represented in the statistics. A lot of women don’t report what happened to them.

RestlessTraveller · 15/10/2017 17:42

I’m not just talking about the misogyny on this thread though. It’s across the whole of MN. I sometimes wonder what the mothers of boys feel after reading the stuff on here. It must be awful for them.

LongWavyHair · 15/10/2017 17:45

Women are never responsible for the predatory behaviour of men.

And men who are innocent are never responsible for the predatory behaviour of some men. My oh, my dad, my sons, my next door neighbour- not one of them are responsible for what other men think is acceptable behaviour towards women.

brasty · 15/10/2017 17:48

Some of the strongest feminists I know are mums of boys who are determined their boys will be different, whilst acknowledging that the wider culture also has an influence on their boys.

MissAlabamaWhitman · 15/10/2017 17:49

I find it so sad if some feel so jaded and trodden on that they feel all males must be creeps due to their experiences of them.

Yes, let's blame women for allowing themselves to be trodden upon, let's sneer at them for becoming 'jaded' because they're obviously not as good as you for allowing themselves to be treated in such a way.

It's absolutely nothing to do with men, it's all women's fault.

RestlessTraveller · 15/10/2017 17:49

I’ve gone from the shaking my head and laughing response to the threads on here towards actual feeling nauseous about some of the comments. If you try and put another side to it, you get mocked and smug people start throwing the terms ‘menz’ and ‘feels’ around.

brasty · 15/10/2017 17:50

Why do you think that is?

MysteriousSheep · 15/10/2017 17:51

peggyseeger.bandcamp.com/track/b-side
Listen to this song. It's old, but this thread shows the same issues still going on and on..

Livingdiisgracefully · 15/10/2017 17:52

Cherry that's just ridiculous that you think you know the situation of people I know personally better than I do just because you know how all women behave.

If she thought he was such a bad father why did she agree that he did most of the childcare until the children were old enough not to need someone there all the time, at which point it suited her to be the resident parent. But yes ignore everything that doesn't fit your narrative, that all women are powerless and vulnerable and all men are creepy potential rapists.

Once again, it's appalling that there's such violence against women. But blaming ALL men for it while simultaneously expecting them to resolve it unilaterally seems illogical in the extreme.

RestlessTraveller · 15/10/2017 17:53

Sorry brasty, was that for me.

bumbleymummy · 15/10/2017 17:54

MissAlabama - who said anything about women 'allowing' themselves to be trodden on or that it's their fault?

Restless yes, I feel quite disturbed by some of the posts.