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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
brasty · 15/10/2017 17:54

Yes it was restless

FetchezLaPhoque · 15/10/2017 17:54

I'm a mother of boys and I feel the same reading MN as I do in the rest of my life. Boys and men are not being demonised. Males as a class are the perpetrators of the overwhelming majority of violence, sexual or otherwise. That is fact and men know it as well. I'm doing my best to raise my son to be aware of consent and to not use his strength to gain an advantage over those smaller/weaker than him. I am using what I know

I think it's interesting what people can hide. I've known my FIL for 15 years and have never heard him saying anything racist but I know from other sources that he is actually quite racist. I felt like I knew him well and was quite shocked to find out the things he's said. I would imagine this

geekone · 15/10/2017 17:55

My point is statistics can be and are used incorrectly and can be skewed. I don't agree that all men are misogynistic arseholes but one is too many. 1/2 a million is still not 1 in 10 there are approximately 21 million women over the age of 18 in the U.K. It doesn't matter where the statistics come from. Now maybe 1 in 10 of women have been sexually assaulted in their lifetimes based on a representative sample of people surveyed, but that isn't 1 in 10 women are assaulted and raped per year. I disagree that most men are creeps but I do agree that too many men are. We need to educate our sons and daughters of the dangers. When I was 18 my boyfriend tried to force me to have sex with him at the time I thought I had got myself into a stupid situation and let it go I didn't even think for a moment that he was in the wrong but it meant that I couldn't then have alex with someone else when I actually wanted to and now 23 years ago I realise what this was. I have never met another man who treated me like this. The only time I was sexually discriminated at work was by a woman. It wasn't my fault I was sexually assaulted it was his but it wasn't any other male beings fault either. Hating all men for some men's actions is not right we wouldn't do it for any other sect of society.

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 17:56

If she thought he was such a bad father why did she agree that he did most of the childcare until the children were old enough not to need someone there all the time, at which point it suited her to be the resident parent. But yes ignore everything that doesn't fit your narrative, that all women are powerless and vulnerable and all men are creepy potential rapists.

There will of course be the odd case of this happening. Though the men having this happen to them could go to court to force access if there is no abuse charges? Is there a reason why he has not? What did the courts say when sorting out custody arrangements?

Anyway, women who maliciously keep the children from the father are very much in the minority. And as I said, the fathers are very capable of getting access, though it may take a while.

I agree that women who maliciously keep the kids from their dad are shocking and awful. But in most cases, this just isn't the case, though in nearly every case, the male will SAY this is the case.

geekone · 15/10/2017 17:56

Sex not alex

KrytensNanobots · 15/10/2017 17:56

Yes, let's blame women for allowing themselves to be trodden upon, let's sneer at them for becoming 'jaded' because they're obviously not as good as you for allowing themselves to be treated in such a way.

I didn't say that at all! Of course women aren't to blame for creep's behaviour.
I just said that there ARE nice men out there, and it is ridiculous and very sad to think that some people are so clouded and put upon that they think all must be bastards/rapists/paedos/gropers. Of course they aren't.
That's like saying all women are bitches/manipulators. Of course they aren't.

FetchezLaPhoque · 15/10/2017 17:56

Gah, posted by accident. Anyway, I think people can hide unpalatable ideas well if they feel that they would get a hostile response.

Aeroflotgirl · 15/10/2017 17:58

Mem are also responsible for raising their sons, why is it always the woman's fault. No not all men are creeps, unfortunately there have been a lot of well know ones.

RestlessTraveller · 15/10/2017 18:00

Brasty are you asking me why I think there’s been a rise in anti-men threads on here?

Lethaldrizzle · 15/10/2017 18:00

Longwavyhair, I wasn't speaking for myself - that's the point - I was speaking for mothers as a collective when I said perhaps we weren't bringing up our sons right. If I was speaking for myself I would say my son was awesome and would never be sexist or abusive but we can never really know for sure can we? All these badly behaved men have mums who think the sun shines out of their arses.

IfyouseeRitaMoreno · 15/10/2017 18:01

And men who are innocent are never responsible for the predatory behaviour of some men.

But what we are doing here is similar to the Madonna/Whore dichotomy. We are splitting men into two groups: innocent and rapist, hero and baddie.

In reality people exist on a spectrum. Yes there are men who would never dream of assaulting a woman themselves but they might think “well what do girls expect when they dress so slutty?”.

They might never dream of grabbing a woman by the pussy but they might laugh, slightly embarrassed, when a mate jokes about his desire to do so.

And of course men have more power to stop it. Who do you think a potential rapist is going to listen to? The woman saying no or a male friend saying “that is out of order”?

“The hand that rocks the cradle” is just a bullshit euphemism designed to make us feel that we have de facto power when we really don’t.

MissAlabamaWhitman · 15/10/2017 18:01

Bumbley the condescension inherent in that post was palpable.

It's a common tactic on here isn't it?
'I find it's just so sad that....'
It's basically synonymous with looking down your nose at another poster and holding them in contempt for their perceived moral failings.

Let's not pretend it isn't the case.

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 18:01

Not all men are creeps, but a disturbing number of men are quite happy to sit back and do nothing whilst women (as a class) are raped and murdered.

A ridiculous number of men are happy to let rape jokes slide, and will not challenge their friends on misogynistic language. And so on.

Is that better?

AnyFucker · 15/10/2017 18:02

I am a mother to a son. A partner to my husband. An aunt and great aunt to my nephews.

Etc

Reading threads like this does not "shock" me or make me feel bad.

Knowing how the world is makes me feel bad.

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 18:03

A high number of men believe rape myths also. And will say so on a semi-regular basis. That loads of women lie about rape. that loads of women sleep with men then regret it and 'cry rape'. That there are loads of falsely accused men getting dragged through the courts...and so on

MissAlabamaWhitman · 15/10/2017 18:07

Krytens I'm not trodden down, nor put upon but I still firmly believe that it's only societal norms that prevent the overwhelming majority of men from acting in a way which would be termed abusive towards the majority of women.

if they could get away with it, most of them would.
Those who believe they can get away with it are the only ones we get to hear about.

I don't believe kidding ourselves helps in any way, so I simply don't bother anymore.

thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter · 15/10/2017 18:10

YANBU.

Good to see the NAMALTs are out in force. Yeah women being abused, raped and killed are all separate unrelated incidents, not at all indicative of patriarchal/misogynistic societies/culture world wide. Nothing to see here, move along, there's a good girl...

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 18:10

if they could get away with it, most of them would.

1/3 of college students involved in a study would apparently. Thats a fucking scary number. of course theres the possibility that the study just happened to pick disgusting blokes for the study. But I doubt it somehow...

bumbleymummy · 15/10/2017 18:11

MissAlabama, I'm not pretending anything. I genuinely don't think it is the case.

HornyTortoise, you're right. 'Loads' of women don't lie about rape. Some do. Now imagine the reaction if someone started a thread on here saying 'most women lie about being raped' based on the fact that some women have.

stitchglitched · 15/10/2017 18:13

RestlessTraveller- misogyny??

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 18:15

'Loads' of women don't lie about rape. Some do. Now imagine the reaction if someone started a thread on here saying 'most women lie about being raped' based on the fact that some women have.

Well going on convictions for it, 109 women ion 5 years have lied about rape. So 22 a year. Yes I expect people would be up in arms if someone said 22 women a year was representative of 'most women'. When we are talking about 85000 rapes a year though...maybe not. Along with murders of females by males, 2 a week I believe. Male violence is an epidemic...I am sure you agree. I don't think this thread was saying most blokes would rape someone, but many are happy to just stand by, and use misogynistic language and such on a regular basis which contributes to rape culture.

MissAlabamaWhitman · 15/10/2017 18:15

There are significantly more men who rape than there are women who lie about being raped.

significantly more.

Men abuse women significantly more often than the reverse.

Sadly, whether you agree or not doesn't alter the fact.

IfyouseeRitaMoreno · 15/10/2017 18:17

most women lie about being raped' based on the fact that some women have

But that’s not the equivalent of what the OP is saying. She’s not saying most men do but that they would if they could and if there were no consequences or social disapproval. It’s a completely different argument.

Look at what happens in war. What happened to the women in Berlin at the end of WW2 when the Soviets swept through, unrestricted by civility or laws and what they did as a result.

And anyone, regardless of how many men it is, I think we can all agree it’s too many.

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 18:17

Going only on convictions is pretty fair. Given I used the 85000 figure and compared it with convictions of women lying. Only 3600 or so are convicted of rape.

So 22 V 3600. Yeah

Elendon · 15/10/2017 18:21

Just want to say I agree with everything in your original post (mum to a gorgeous son).

YANBU.

After being thrown asunder for someone else, 20 years I was with my ex, I went on the dating scene. There was only one man out of 10 that I would have carried on having a relationship with. I'm still a facebook friend with him and he has since married.

My son is aware of women's rights and the privileges he has. He is autistic, high functioning.