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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 15:59

I was challenging your view that only men have to challenge creepiness. But you ignored that point

Well considering women have asked men for centuries to stop beating, raping and abusing them, and they still are, yes I do think it’s the men’s turn to have a go at trying to change he ways of their peers. Men don’t respect women enough to stop hurting them, they are more likely to take actions when other men get involved.

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 16:00

For all of you wanting facts, here are some facts from the website Rape Crisis: Rape Crisis Statistics

Approximately 85,000 women and 12,000 men are raped in England and Wales alone every year; that's roughly 11 rapes (of adults alone) every hour. These figures include assaults by penetration and attempts.

Nearly half a million adults are sexually assaulted in England and Wales each year

1 in 5 women aged 16 - 59 has experienced some form of sexual violence since the age of 16

Only around 15% of those who experience sexual violence choose to report to the police

Approximately 90% of those who are raped know the perpetrator prior to the offence

These figures come from An Overview of Sexual Offending in England and Wales, the first ever joint official statistics bulletin on sexual violence released by the Ministry of Justice (MoJ), Office for National Statistics (ONS) and Home Office in January 2013.

As well as this:

31% of young women aged 18-24 report having experienced sexual abuse in childhood (NSPCC, 2011)

In 2012-13, 22,654 sexual offences against under-18s were reported to police in England and Wales with four out of five cases involving girls (NSPCC, 2014)

Most women in the UK do not have access to a Rape Crisis Centre (Map of Gaps, 2007)

A third of people believe women who flirt are partially responsible for being raped (Amnesty, 2005)

Conviction rates for rape are far lower than other crimes, with only 5.7% of reported rape cases ending in a conviction for the perpetrator. (Kelly, Lovett and Regan, A gap or a chasm? Attrition in reported rape cases, 2005)

OP posts:
Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 16:02

Facts about the amount of unwanted sexual contact made in the workplace:

More than half of women have suffered sexual harassment in the workplace, including sexual assaults and comments about their bodies, research has found.

Researchers from the Trades Union Congress and the Everyday Sexism Project found that 52% of women had experienced unwanted behaviour at work including groping, sexual advances and inappropriate jokes. Among women and girls aged 16-24, the proportion reporting sexual harassment rose to 63%.

Around one in eight women reported unwanted sexual touching of their breasts, buttocks or genitals or attempts to kiss them at work, which the report’s authors point out would be considered sexual assault under the law. And 1% said they had been raped or seriously sexually assaulted in their workplace.

Almost a fifth said they had been harassed by their boss or someone else with authority over them.

But four in five women said they did not report the incidents to their employers, with many fearing that it would harm their relationships at work or that they would not be taken seriously.

The findings, described by the TUC as the biggest study of its kind for a generation, are published in a report on Wednesday, Still Just a Bit of Banter?.

One woman described how a colleague said on her last day “his biggest regret was that he didn’t get the chance to rape me in the store room before I left”. She had been afraid to go in there for months because of the man’s previous comments, she said.

Another woman told the researchers: “The most senior person in the organisation made a series of ‘jokes’ ... about how I might want to give my boss a ‘rub down’ or a ‘massage’. Another director gestured to grab my breasts at a social gathering.”

Female barristers report high level of sexual harassment at work
Read more
Frances O’Grady, the TUC’s general secretary, said: “How many times do we still hear that sexual harassment in the workplace is just a bit of ‘banter’? Let’s be clear – sexual harassment is undermining, humiliating and can have a huge effect on mental health ... It has no place in a modern workplace, or in wider society.”

Angela Rayner, Labour’s equalities spokeswoman, said she was shocked by the findings. She said: “There is nothing funny about one in three women being subjected to inappropriate jokes of a sexual nature when they are simply trying to do their jobs.

OP posts:
CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 16:05

Adding to the sources OP - this report by the CPS was released this week about violent crimes against women and girls www.cps.gov.uk/publications/docs/cps-vawg-report-2017.pdf

MillicentFawcett · 15/10/2017 16:05

@KrytensNanobots - I'm getting my facts from being 50 and not knowing a single woman who hasn't been at least sexually harassed, if not assaulted. So there's either a small number of men who are hassling and assaulting women 24/7 or a lot of men do it.

And I'm not talking about the dangerous men - just the common or garden creeps.

TooManyPaws · 15/10/2017 16:06

I'm sure that the mothers of the young men making remarks about women on the school bus think that their sons are lovely boys who are respectful to them.

I remember the furore when the Wrens went to sea and how there were going great to be terrible temptations for the poor men. Well, not going to sea before didn't stop the numerous pick up attempts by "happily-married" men previously. It's amazing how quickly you develop a hard bounce back.

chosenone · 15/10/2017 16:09

God this resonates so much. I feel I have been waking up and opening my eyes to this steadily over my 30s and 40s. A few things that make me think is they way some men collude in their mysogony. My BIL had a stag do and various rumours abound when they returned, one guy had apparently run up thousands on a credit card in a strip bar Confused. Apparently the stag and his best friend paid it off quickly before his DW found out! In a real back slapping boys together sense of camaraderie.
Also... I was involved in an awful child protection case in which a young teenage girl had been trafficked by her mum to various drug dealers/users. It just made me think; were all these men already abusers/paedophiles or just did it because they could/it was offered!?

KrytensNanobots · 15/10/2017 16:11

I'm getting my facts from being 50 and not knowing a single woman who hasn't been at least sexually harassed, if not assaulted. So there's either a small number of men who are hassling and assaulting women 24/7 or a lot of men do it.

Yes, but that's YOUR experience. Others can have experiences too that differ. There are women out there who have never been assaulted.

Holowiwi · 15/10/2017 16:12

it is not the responsibility of women to correct men's bad behaviour

I have never understood this comment, why is it women don't have to correct their sons, fathers and brothers bad behaviour when they see it but men do?

user1490465531 · 15/10/2017 16:15

But why do books like fifty shades that are about a man basically domineering a woman become so popular with women who say it is their fantasy?
Books were biggest load of tosh ever but millions of women bought a copy.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 15/10/2017 16:16

His wife wasn't the one sentencing him.
The point was that he appeared to be "one of the lovely ones" because that is how he chose to portray himself to the people in his life. His family (well apart from a couple of them...) thought he was a good man.
He was a beast.

This isn't about women being at fault. Women are not to blame for men's behaviour, the men are. But that doesn't mean women can or should stand back and do nothing about it. Men should too, of course - but they often don't.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 15/10/2017 16:17

The fact is that Millicent doesn't know any women that haven't been harassed and worse

That not every women has had to deal with this is not the issue it's that the majority have in an ideal world no women or girl would be a victim but that so many still are in 2017 is unacceptable so the argument of it's not all women is derailing the very very serious issue and belittles the problem

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 16:19

Happyemoji - I wasn't looking to pull ffs - I was married. I was married when my friend's brother hit on me, I was married when my friend's husband hit on me and I was married when my husband's friend hit on me. The last 2 knew I was married and knew us as a couple. Didn't stop them. Their wives would also describe them exactly as you are describing the men in your life.

Really, ask your husband, ask your brother, ask all those lovely men in your life if they've ever done any of the things we're talking about on this thread. Or whether they've ever witnessed them and stopped it. I can't believe you cannot acknowledge what a massive problem this is, and how many otherwise "lovely" men are involved.

OP posts:
EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 15/10/2017 16:19

And of course before it's pointed out no man or boy should be sexually harassed/assaulted/raped

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 15/10/2017 16:21

user1490465531

You answered your own question it's fantasy

Livingdiisgracefully · 15/10/2017 16:21

Well Cherry, back to my point about black people challenging racism in the past. They had been beaten, demeaned, raped and even enslaved, for centuries, but still felt they had to be part of the drive for change.

I feel I have to challenge creepiness when I come across and I think we should all do that.

Equally I have personally know some women who have tried to keep their children from estranged parties. Not because they were abusive, I know that because they admitted it wasn't because of that. Just because they wanted to. Also, some married women that have made a beeline for married men.

The point is, not all women are angels and not all men are demons. I just don't think stereotyping helps. And if you think I'm an apologist for male violence or creepy behaviour, that's rubbish too because I've called it out numerous times to men individually, online and in groups.
Nor do I believe violence or harassment by men is in any way acceptable. What I disagree with is the method to combat it. Assuming all men of it., stereotyping and sweeping generalisations are ultimately unhelpful and counterproductive.

furiousandmad · 15/10/2017 16:21

Agree that this has sent me over the edge this week, and made me feel determined that men need to be equal partners in ending the violence that THEIR sex will not stop inflicting on women and girls. I've set up a Facebook page if anyone is interested

www.facebook.com/furyagainstmaleviolence/

DJBaggySmalls · 15/10/2017 16:23

user1490465531
What do womens fantasies about what they'd like to do in the bedroom have to do with mens violence?

You confuse sex and violence.

Mittens1969 · 15/10/2017 16:24

I think the poster was correcting the idea that it’s always the mother who needs to correct bad behaviour in children; obviously fathers also have to play a part.

And I do agree that far too many men do treat women and girls appallingly, and a lot of these men are seemingly lovely husbands and fathers in their own families. It’s why so many women are not believed.

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 16:25

Krytens - I'm not tarring all men with the same brush. I am using the words "a large proportion". Look at the statistics I've posted, look at all the anecdotal evidence. Look at the interview with Emma Thompson a couple of days ago. Just open your eyes and look around you at the way men behave in groups, in clubs, watching other women walking down the street and openly ogling, Men standing too close on the tube or train, men pressing their erections into your back.
It happens on a depressingly regular basis, to me and to most of the women I know. The dodgy bloke in the office who always talks to my tits. The boss who calls his senior management team made up of 40+ yr old women "the girls" and always asks one of us to make tea in preference to the younger male juniors in the meeting. If you have not personally experienced any of this stuff, you are in the minority and one of the lucky ones.

OP posts:
chosenone · 15/10/2017 16:25

I find many women haven't opened their eyes yet and also collude with their men. Some of the worst victim blaming/rape apologists I've seen are women, usually married to mysoginistic arseholes!

paintingmary · 15/10/2017 16:28

I know a "Millicent" who has never experienced bad men... her husband works as a stockbroker, but "has to work until past midnight" several times a week, and she is not allowed to call him then, or ever look at his phone etc. She doesn't have access to any of the financial info, he is dismissive and condescending towards her.
It's full on red flag, eye rolling, but she is vile because women are "asking for it" but her husband would never cheat...

Livingdiisgracefully · 15/10/2017 16:32

Thumb witches, women are part of society, we are law makers, judges, solicitors, voters, pressure groups. Why are you so passive? Change happens by everyone taking part. Why is it only men who you believe can shape society.

randomuntrainedcuntowner · 15/10/2017 16:37

Yanbu

Increasinglymiddleaged · 15/10/2017 16:43

Speak for yourself, I have never, ever been with a group of women, who when seeing a 12 year old boy in school uniform have said 'cor, I'd love to fuck him' have you?

I've never ever been with a group of men who have done that either. I'm sure it happens but I think most men would be horrified tbh.

In terms of rape we need to tackle the low proportion of convictions. It must be possible to improve things. I truly believe that it is rare for anyone to lie about this, we need to challenge the perception that many claims are false, they just aren't. It is this that makes rape easy to get away with.

The whole concept of innocent till proven guilty, that it applies to that foul specimen in the news this week, Harvey Whoever. He is guilty and I say that with confidence without any trial.