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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
Livingdiisgracefully · 15/10/2017 15:42

it is not the responsibility of women to correct men's bad behaviour

What a ridiculous thing to say. It's the responsibility of everyone to correct bad behaviour. I would agree that it's not the responsibility of an individual woman if a man behaves badly towards her. Of course not. But we all need to be calling out unacceptable behaviour. As I say, when I was harrassed, it was the women who minimised it and that made it worse.

I want female AND male opinion formers, politicians and others to come out against creeps.

Should Rosa Parks or Steve Biko or Nelson Mandela not stood up against racist bullies because it should be the white guys doing it. No!

brasty · 15/10/2017 15:43

Okay does depend how long your street is. 1 in every 700 men is on sex offender register.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 15:43

Another favourite is bringing up how the courts usually side with the mother. Failing to recognize that courts do not discriminate on the basis of sex and if it had been the male who did the lions share of childcare and such, the children would go to the male with access given to the female..and also not taking into account that a lot of the time the male does not actually fight for custody..but then moans when the kids go to the female and he has to pay maintenance (which is usually not paid

Yes!!! Family courts do not favour women, they favour CHILDREN!! It just so happens that women are the parent beat places to care for the child the majority of the time.

My friend stopped her ex seeing their children after he turned up drunk to pick them up from school for the third time, then potted her windows and slashed her retired parent’s car tyres. He is violent and abusive and not fit to be around animals let alone kids. Funnily enough, that’s not how he phrased it to other people. He tells them “she’s stopping me from seeing the kids because she’s bitter and the courts favour women”. And do you know what? People believe him and sympathise with him. They’ve probably posted it on MN. People like this are inherently thick though TBF

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 15:43

Yes MRAs aren’t interested in what affects men the most, like mental health, they want to destroy women especially feminists

MRAs are all about hating women, from what I know. Theres a guy on another site that I am on crowing about the woman who was prosecuted for false rape claims, using this to show that 'loads of women' lie and that men need to be careful...using the ridiculous 'must get a signed contract before sex' rubbish.

He blames women for everything. he goes on about how there are thousands of refuges for abused women but none for abused men, states this is the fault of feminists rather than recognising that if the demand was there for abused men, then this would be different. Blames feminists for there being loads of fund raising for breast cancer (ignoring that men get breast cancer too), and apparently none for prostate cancer (when I suggested he fundraise for prostate cancer he would not, as feminists would attack him apparently). Its womens fault that there are so many homeless men, and that m,en kill themselves at an alarming rate. men only kill themselves when an evil woman takes away his kids and steals his house and his wages, apparently.

MRAs are basically a huge joke. Utterly misogynistic jokes.

bumbleymummy · 15/10/2017 15:43

"oldlaundbooth"

Well I'm glad that's the case if the majority of men in your universe are creeps.

brasty · 15/10/2017 15:44

And you have to remember that prolific offenders like Jimmy Salville have never been on the sex offender register

MillicentFawcett · 15/10/2017 15:44

And as I said on the thread about the 17 year old who was assaulted 3 times on her way home last week, the fact that nearly all women have been sexually assaulted, raped and sexually harassed means that it is a lot more than a tiny proportion of men. It's most of them.

And as for your lovely husbands? I'm single and in the last ten years, three of my friends' husbands have hit on me. Three. Married men with kids who are in happy long term marriages and whose wives I've known for 20+ years. And you know what? Their wives think they're good guys. They're not.

derxa · 15/10/2017 15:46

He should know better and I correct him. I always speak up about bad behaviour and if I was assaulted I would report etc. However I'm not going to sour my life anticipating harm or hurt round every corner.

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 15:47

Yes!!! Family courts do not favour women, they favour CHILDREN!! It just so happens that women are the parent beat places to care for the child the majority of the time.

Yup. If me and DH split up tomorrow and had to go to court to sort stuff, I am positive the kids would go to him, with me just having access. Because he does most of the childcare as I have a long term illness. He takes them to school and picks them up. He gets up with them on a morning as usually I am in too much pain to do much.

Courts do not favour the mother at all. Courts decide based on what they think would disrupt the kids lives the least.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 15:47

It’s very telling when posters aren’t offended by the fact so many women are raped and abused, but pointing out that men rape and abuse offends them 🤔🤔🤔

qwerty Why would you feel sorry for men who have women in their lives who no longer want this abuse to continue?

And don’t be so dumb naive to thi my hat you’ve never experienced sexism because YOU are not sexist. Do you think all those women who are raped every year were so because they’re sexists...or because they were targeted by rapists?

KrytensNanobots · 15/10/2017 15:48

the fact that nearly all women have been sexually assaulted, raped and sexually harassed means that it is a lot more than a tiny proportion of men. It's most of them.

Where are you getting your "facts" from?
It's not a fact just because someone on the internet says it is without quoting sources.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 15:49

when I was harrassed, it was the women who minimised it and that made it worse.

It’s a shame that, though you were harassed by a man, it’s the women you seem more angry at

Happyemoji · 15/10/2017 15:49

It is not the responsibility of women to correct men’s bad behaviour.

Then if we don't work together then how will things change and I'm the dumb one. I have been subjected to all those things as well in my youth and even then I spoke to someone and I made it clear to the individual how I felt. I've seen my friend go through it and me and my girlfriends had to do something about it. I have 3 daughters and I tell them everyday don't let no one put their hand on you.

I joked about the title I don't believe all men are like that. I will not sit down if someone else is in pain its not in my nature.

Happyemoji · 15/10/2017 15:50

It's not a fact just because someone on the internet says it is without quoting sources.

Very true.

bumbleymummy · 15/10/2017 15:52

Hold on, someone thinking that women need to be protected makes them ' a creep' ? Hmm So if a guy had come across that 17 year old and decided to stay with her to get her home safely and 'protect' her from the evil bastards who assaulted her, he would have been a creep? Nonsense.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 15/10/2017 15:52

I read an article today that I wish I hadn't, about a sex offender called Roger Took. He's dead now, thank God, and the article was from 2008.
However.
His wife of 25 years could not believe that he was guilty of the depravity of which he was accused - until she was shown hard evidence.
I would suggest googling him but don't read the articles about him, unless you have a very strong stomach.

The point of mentioning him is this:
He got a pathetic sentence, considering what he did, because he was a well known and respected art historian, and many people "just couldn't believe" he was guilty of paedophilia and worse. His standing in the public eye and community overrode the heinousness of his crimes. How is this reasonable? How does this happen? How did the whole Brock Turner episode happen the way it did? Because too many men "look the other way", consider it "only a bit of fun" etc. Because too many men refuse to condemn the behaviour. And so it goes on.

Livingdiisgracefully · 15/10/2017 15:53

No Cherrymuncher I was furious with the man. I challenged it and him and he never did it again. But I was also angry with the women that minimised it. If it had been the men that minimised it, I'd have been angry with them.

I was challenging your view that only men have to challenge creepiness. But you ignored that point.

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 15:53

From my experience, women do tend to speak up about it, and are either ignored, or belittled. When I stood up to the dickhead who was going on about false rape claims being really common the guys in the group were all on his side, and insisted he was right. Since I sent proof that its not actually common, the guy hasn't even replied (though he has seen it, as facebook tells you when a post has been read). SO he did not acknowledge that he was wrong, and will probably bring it up again at a later date...just when I am not there to pull him up on it.

You have to wonder, whats in it for these 'nice guys' to keep using these rape myths? Even my DH, who I thought was about as feminist as a man can be, believed that false claims were really common ffs.

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 15:54

Millicent - I've had a similar experience - 1 of my friend's husbands has hit on me and one of my husband's friends.

I was just coming back to respond a bit more to the "not the men in my life" brigade. A few years ago, I was meeting a work friend in a bar to celebrate her 30th. I got there late (so people were quite pissed) and was queuing at the bar and a man came up behind me and whispered in my ear "I'd love to come over your tits" - I turned around and told him to fuck off, then went over to my friend. It emerged he was her brother. He couldn't believe it when I joined the group. I met him subsequently at another gathering when he wasn't pissed, and he came over and apologised, told me he was mortified and he'd never had said that if he'd known I was his sister's friend. I never told her - everyone knows him as one of the nice guys. And he is, to family and friends. I know him quite well now and he is lovely, kind, respectful to women. Except when he's pissed on a night out, and to someone he thinks he'll never see again.

OP posts:
Livingdiisgracefully · 15/10/2017 15:55

Thumb witches, didn't you say his wife, presumably a woman, didn't believe it. But it was the men who turned a blind eye Confused.

Surely none of us should turn a blind eye?

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 15:56

How is this reasonable? How does this happen?

Well yes. I don't think I have ever heard of anyone getting the maximum sentence for rape. And apparently 6 rapists (who admit they raped) a year get away with just a CAUTION. Along with over a thousand people who sexually assult. Cautions for this for gods sake...its pathetic.

If sentences were better, it may act as a deterrent. At the moment, people who assault know they will likely get off with a slap on the wrist.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 15:56

This reply has been deleted

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paintingmary · 15/10/2017 15:58

YANBU. 5 years ago I would have said not all men were creeps, sure there are loads, my dad is vile, and there was that teacher who I slept with, the creep who sexually assaulted me, the boyfriend who screamed at me because I hadn't made dinner, etc.

But now, thanks to my husband, his brothers and his friends, I am certain that all men are gross. A thin veneer of civility, but that's only a cloak to disguise their grim.

Happyemoji · 15/10/2017 15:58

I was just coming back to respond a bit more to the "not the men in my life" brigade.

You have to accept other women will have different experiences to you. Some women don't go out with the intention of looking to pull men.

KrytensNanobots · 15/10/2017 15:59

I was just coming back to respond a bit more to the "not the men in my life" brigade.

Yeah, but can't you see how ridiculous it is to tar an entire gender with the same brush just because of the experiences you've had?