Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

[Narnia72]

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

• Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

• 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

Any other reaction and you're part of the fucking problem

We need to find solutions too. In so many instances, laws are being broken and they are not being prosecuted.

SGB agree

After reading this thread I asked my mother if she had ever been sexually assaulted. She was 100% sure that she hadn't, but I went through all levels the other ways to be violated other than rape, and she was shocked and very upset as she has suffered...

Being groped by her boss at work (massive law firm in London)
Bum/boobs grabbed on tube most weeks
Countless assaults in pubs and clubs over the years.

I also my asked my dad about his opinion of the reports that have come to light recently.

"Girls that go out drunk with short skirts are asking for it"
"Women who get cancelled should be flattered by the compliment"
And my personal favourite
"DD2 is very pretty, hopefully she will marry a rich man one day"

I'm so disappointed in him. Though he's always been a wanker. Last year he told me that animals don't feel pain and are only put on this earth to be eaten. I hadn't realised he was such a profound woman hater until now though.

I don't know why 'all levels' is in the first sentence, sorry.

@ReanimatedSGB

If you don't need me to like me, and you are indifferent to my opinions, I'm indebted to you for making the effort of reading my posting and taking the time to reply.

Outstanding and very unselfish of you. Thank you.

If I have one criticism, it's that you didn't say anything original or make any telling observations. But nevertheless, thank you.

Bloody hell cancelled should be cat called. My keyboard is so stick today.

No, I don't believe all men are creeps. I do think a significant number are, however.

I think it's a continuum, too. It's not just those who are serial abusers, assaulters and rapists. Its those who sit down on their arses instead of doing 50% of the housework. It's those who don't bother with birthday presents, because someone else does that work. It's those who preferentially hire men because they're "easier" to deal with, or who go out drinking after work with groups all of whom are men, because a woman would "spoil" the dynamic. All these things contribute to a culture where women are undervalued, and treated without dignity. They are all part of the same picture of a sexual politics that is both personal and public.

OhThis: how many times, now, have you announced that you are leaving the thread? Yet here you are, again. It's a bit like those sad blokes in nightclubs hanging on, desperately, until closing time in the hope that one of the women who had previously ignored or rebuffed them will suddenly change her mind.

Or is your poor cute little manly mind too confused to find the exit?

Out of me, my sister and my 3 cousins it’s only me who hasn’t been raped. My sister by an exboyfriend in an abusive relationship, my cousins (all in their late teens) were either groomed by a gang, raped by a stranger who got them drunk or by a group of lads they thought of as friends.

I count myself as the lucky one because I’ve only been sexually assaulted. Which is terrifyingly sad.

The latest incident for me was a man walking through a very crowded nightclub holding his drink in such a way his hands and fingers were stroking and lingering across women’s breasts/nipple area. Mine included. Luckily I’m far too old for the nightclub scene (in my mid 30’s) so unlike the other ladies who had been touched I didn’t dismiss it (but if I had been their age I probably would have done and “laughed it off” as a joke which is what would have been expected) and I smacked him in the balls. NOT my finest moment (drunk and angry) and luckily he didn’t retaliate. His friends (who had allowed him to assault many women up to that point) clapped me on the back for a job well done... but where were they for the 20 or so other ladies before me?

It scares me to think my beautiful nieces may all experience this and worse in the future.

Suffolk I found your post really interesting, especially this bit:

"After reading this thread I asked my mother if she had ever been sexually assaulted. She was 100% sure that she hadn't, but I went through all levels the other ways to be violated other than rape, and she was shocked and very upset as she has suffered..."

When women of my own age (late 30s) and above tell me they've never been sexually assaulted, my honest reaction is "I think that woman doesn't understand what sexual assault means". Because I literally don't know anyone who hasn't been - it's just that so many women have just accepted it as "what happens". I am sure there are some who have gone through life without experiencing it, but I think it would be very, very rare, and like you I would have to run through a big long list of various incidents before I believed them! When I was younger, being groped inappropriately was literally almost a daily occurrence.

@HornyTortoise, I do agree to a certain extent, the Blade Runner example is very disturbing and triggered my own trauma when I watched it. And yes, I would agree that the slave girl scene is unpleasant, I never liked it. But the examples from Indiana Jones are silly; for one thing, in the Last Crusade the woman happens to be a Nazi and also seduced his father before seducing him.

Yeah a couple of the examples are a bit silly. Most of them though..well I can kind of understand how blokes growing up with these 'idols' may go along with the 'assault a woman until she falls in love with you' kind of thinking.

YHis is not me taking blame away from men/boys who sdually assault. Just trying to understand a little more quite why its disturbingly common.

"Just trying to understand a little more quite why its disturbingly common"

I don't think the answer to this lies in individual psychology, but in culture.

It was normal and acceptable for men to behave like this until very recently indeed - in fact, there are still huge areas of society where it still is seen as broadly OK.

It’s true that James Bond always used to be deeply misogynistic, I liked it a lot better once they introduced Judy Dench as M. It changed quite a bit after that.

Once I would have said yabu.
But it's just so insidious...and even the men who appear nice have this undertone in lots of cases...feminist on the face of it, well mannered, educated, enlightened and moral...but get them In an all male environment and watch the veneer slide off...

It's exhausting.

Luckily, you're all trapped inside a computer and you can't get past the glass screen and hurt me.

And that is just another example of why you will never get it. You don't really fear being hurt by women so you can make a little joke about it. My fear of male violence is no laughing matter, it is my lived reality. Stop belittling it.

stitch

I think your earlier post was spot on and the thread is being derailed

My apologies for joining in with what I thought initially was a clumsy attempt at being lighthearted

Don't apologise Rufus, your posts are great. I think that particular poster's agenda is becoming clear though and it isn't to listen to women or learn anything!

OhThis
Your posts give me the creeps. Pub bore bonhomie trying to negate the experiences of women on here.

i don't think the answer to this lies in individual psychology, but in culture

I wholeheartedly agree.

I’ve moved from the uk to Sweden and the difference here is palpable. Men and women seem to relate to each other differently, in a more respectful way. It’s not perfect, I don’t think anywhere is, but the gender divide here is much less. It starts in infancy - there’s very little pink/blue rubbish here and men take a lot of paternity leave. And it continues all the way through society. I feel safer here than anywhere I’ve ever lived. I’ve never been catcalled here, I’ve never felt really unsafe.
All these huge (Jesus, swedes are so fucking tall!) blokes that look like they’re one beard plait away from stepping off a longship with an axe - all pushing prams and behaving decently. It’s wonderful. And that makes me think a LOT of this is socialisation. If Swedish/Icelandic men can do it, I’m sure all can.

As for are all men awful under a thin veneer? No I don’t think all are. I think a significant minority are, and that’s a huge problem.

Also what’s sad is that my 71 year old mother thinks that women in some ways ask for bad things to happen based on what we wear, out late at night on our own etc

She also thinks I’m a disgrace because my dh makes dinner when he comes home from work when I’m on maternity leave even though he’s a better cook, doesn’t mind it and I do the majority of cleaning. It works for us.

If I try to have any discussion with my parents my dad then turns around and says ‘oh you feminists’ as if it’s such a terrible thing to be. So sad

Someone mentioned above that people don’t fully understand what sexual assault is and I think this is key. Even for me as a 30 something year old woman I need to check myself if I’m being sexist, racist etc and even had to question my first time having sex which I don’t remember at all. I was drunk on holidays but was my drink spiked and is that rape as I don’t remember anything so where did consent come into this? This only dawned on me after reading the book ‘Asking for it’ by Louise O’Neill. I can’t believe I never thought of this experience this way.

In my Mam’s family several of them were abused as children but never spoke out as that wasn’t the thing you did and they are from a religious background.

All very depressing

peanut

My mum grew up in the 1950's and 60's slums of Liverpool

She saw some of the dreadful things men do to women and parents do to children. She was once dragged into an alley herself and had a lucky escape when she was rescued by a couple walking past

So i think i was...no i know i was incredibly lucky to have as a mother a woman who would never ever victim blame in anyway, shape or form

Except she was weird about toenail polish...no idea why

OK I am actually kind of upset right now...

So, I mentioned the Hans Solo forcing himself on Leia and James Bond raping women to my husband, and no arguments, he agreed that it was all wrong and actually said (without prompting) what kind of message is this sending to those who view these characters as heros and that. His cousin is a huge star wars fan, and he sent a message to him asking if he thought Hans Solo was a pervert, and I was shocked when he got a reply saying yes and explaining the reasons why (which included the forcing himself on Leia). My husband then brought up that horrible blade runner film, and also mentioned how that kind of thing is ridiculously common in WWE too (he is a huge wrestling fan) and how its wrong to normalize stuff like that, especially as some younger viewers really look up to the stars.

So I moved onto blokes need to challenge other blokes on mysonignistic language more often. He got a little offended at this at first and thought I was accusing him of something. Now I do know that he often challenges other men on the way they speak about women, and I also know one of my male friends does too. I have seen it happen myself, and have also heard other blokes bitching on about how X and X are such buzz kills due to said pulling up on mysoginy. Anyway, he agreed that the 'nice guys' need to speak up more often and said he does not get why they don't as he reckons most blokes are horrified by the way a lot of men speak about women...but apparently these guys who are horrified tend to just not take plce in the conversation by staying quiet or just leaving the table/group. I assume this is because they don't want other men to think less of them, or see them as any less 'manly'. Especially given the amount of shit my husband and our male friend put up with when they go out, being a couple of the ones who DO speak up.

Anyway, somehow the conversation progressed a little more to men just grabbing peoples arse/tits/fanny in nightclubs and that. Which is where my husband...well...he started going on about 'if women go out dressed like slappers what do they expect' and 'if they go out looking like sluts from a street corner they deserve whats coming to them'. WOW I was shocked. I told him that 'slut' and 'slapper' are the kind of thing he would pull up other blokes for saying and that its a horrible way to describe a woman who went out in a short dress or something. And what did he mean by 'get whats coming to them'. He started spluttering on a bit then said he didn't mean it the way it sounded...but when pressed for what he DID mean, he had no answer. I continued telling him how a woman should be able to go out wearing bloody underwear and not expect to be assaulted by a bunch of pervs, and he agreed but said he meant that there were a lot of pervy blokes around who will take any excuse to feel up a woman, or worse. I agreed with that part, but said that nothing a woman actually does would discourage blokes like that and that its victim blaming to say that women who go out dressed a certain way deserve to be felt up against their will and that the problem was with the males who assault, not the women who are assaulted. He agreed with this. I am not sure if he agreed just to get me to shut up or not, but this tirade of mysoginistic language/views came from a guy who does seem to view both sexes equally, who does pull up other guys regularly on their behaviour, and who does not seem to view women as just a piece of meat. A 'nice guy'.

So I guess even more than ever, I agree with to sentiment of the OP. I would not say my husband was a creep for this one outburst. But he clearly has internalised issues with women...that he has kept fairly well hidden til now. I know he fights this, I know he does try very hard. I think its maybe something thats been drilled into him over his lifetime...kind of like how you can never just forget how to ride a bike once you have learnt. That may be a bad analogy but I am sure you understand what I mean by it. This does not mean I am shifting the blame to aything except my husband. Just it really shocked me how such a 'feminist guy' can be so...off.

Having said all of this, maybe I am just kidding myself, given the last conversation we had along these lines, my husband reckoned that 'loads' of women lied abut rape. He was corrected of course and seemed to understand. But maybe not. Maybe he just acts ike the nice guy around me but slips up occasionally. I prefer to think its the opposite though, that he IS a nice guy but the mysoginy is burried deep down inside him, and he tries to fight it but it still rears its head every now and again.

You always get a few posters on Internet forums like OhThisbloodyComputer, who just like winding women up by being as irritating as possible, but they think they’re being witty. It’s best not to engage.

I don’t feel I’m in danger of male violence normally, I feel nervous when there are footsteps behind me, but it’s because I’m jumpy because of past abuse. The men I know now are lovely and not at all threatening. They would also be revolted at the attitude displayed towards women described on this thread.

But then I don’t go on nights out into the city centre anymore. It was a different matter when I did.

horny

Im sorry

I think sometimes we all say something sexist and wrong to a greater or lesser extent

The secret is to realise its wrong and don't do it again

It must have come as a dreadful shock

I remember having a conversation with dh and mil about dd potentially going to a boys bedroom and at a very naive 15 thinking that the boy was just being friendly

They both said that although they knew it was wrong that the girl would absolutely be seen by the boy and other people as 'asking for it'. They didn't believe it but it was just the way if the world

I was beyond furious...