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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 09:30

@peanut2017

I didn't mean to be rude to you and I'm sorry if it came across that way.

Yes, I agree, there are dreadful patriarchal assumptions made. I was a catholic and it's is a dreadful bloke-ish organisation. (I still am in a way, but I haven't voluntarily been to church for donkey's years because it's such a corrupted religion. Catholicism was corrupted because they men in charge weren't answerable to anyone and we, catholics as was, were pathetically in awe of them.)

I'm not proud of all the dreadful stuff you've described.

You are right in many ways. I do sympathise with your points.

It's just that when people describe 'The Patriarchy' as some kind of organised system, I don't recognise that.

You get people on here describing it as if it's some form of formal organisation with rules and regulations. I think it's more like an inherited set of prejudices. Not defending that.

Anyway, I should do some work now. I take your points though. Maybe I'm being flippant as I'm still in the denial stage of grief. Or something.

I'm sure DrK or Genghis Khan will know. They know the answers to everything

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 09:35

That Margaret Atwood was right. Men are afraid that women will laugh at them.

HandbagKrabby · 16/10/2017 09:39

How can you not internalise it if you're bombarded with sexist stuff from before you were born (how your mother is treated during pregnancy and childbirth, comments about boys and girls if you know the sex from your scan and then the toys and clothes that are bought for you).

I think a lot of people feel they have a lot to lose if things changed so as the status quo works for them they'd quite like it to stay the same. You can get status as a women by playing the good girl in your patriarchal culture, even though you're never valued as the equal to a man.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 09:39

Thanks dr

Wine
OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 09:48

@rufus

While I'm giving positive feedback, I might add that quoting famous people isn't impressive, it just means you haven't got the imagination to make your own arguments.

Similarly, emoticons are for people who can't express themselves.

Ganging up with another person, so they can echo your every point, looks silly once you're in senior school. (DOesn't it, Imaginary friend? It does look silly doesn't it?

Imaginary friend: Yes, it does you are so right. The fact that neither of us has the confidence to make a point on our own seems to dminish us both, doesn't it?

Yes, it does imaginary friend. It really does)

OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 09:50

@HandbagKrabby

I hope it isn't true that women are never valued the same as men. How come we've had two women prime ministers?

There are women in tops jobs all over the place.

Good grief. It's 9:50. I'm off

Mittens1969 · 16/10/2017 10:00

Actually you’re not correct, peanut2017. Priests in the Catholic Church are not allowed to marry because of an idealised view of celibacy. Sex was seen as inherently sinful, and only to be allowed for procreation (hence the stance on contraception). It developed because of the Catholic veneration of the Virgin Mary; she was a virgin and sinless so sex was therefore what passed sin through the generations.

It’s complete rot because Mary wouldn’t have been a virgin once she married Joseph, and she had other children apart from Jesus. It’s also not what the Bible teaches about sex, but that’s another discussion.

Weirdly, women had more power under the monastic system, as they could become abbesses and run convents. A lot of high-born women were sent to convents if marriages weren’t arranged for them.

I’m not arguing that patriarchy doesn’t exist in the Catholic Church, of course it does, but it’s not the reason why it teaches what it does on the priesthood and celibacy. In practice, of course men have benefited more, because of the hierarchy in the Catholic Church and because the priests (all men) make the rules.

makeourfuture · 16/10/2017 10:04

We must remember that it has been confirmed that 200,000 civilians died in the Iraqi conflict. We are still ruthless and bloodthirsty.

MissAlabamaWhitman · 16/10/2017 10:05

For the avoidance of doubt, this is what we're up against.

Thanks Computer you've illustrated my point rather perfectly.

Let's just face the facts that men deny the existence of their privilege because of they don't admit to it they think they won't be called upon to relieve themselves of it.

Yes they really do hope that we're that backwardly bovine.

It'd be amusing if its consequences weren't so dire.

Let's face facts. Men are where they are in the structure of society primarily due to the constant insidious threat of violence.

It's that simple.

Until we as a sex gain mutant physical strength and transform in to something appropriating x men I'm afraid fuck all will change.

And yes, I'm angry about that.

So suck on it, dickhead.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 10:13

Alabama
Amen

stitchglitched · 16/10/2017 10:17

Urgh why is one poster allowed to derail an important thread about the epidemic of male violence with 'light hearted' jokes. It's just made the thread unreadable for me, I really don't have the patience for this shit anymore. I shouldn't have to persuade a man to take my lived experience seriously by making sure I'm polite and apologetic enough to him about it. Still at least OhThis has done a great job in proving the OP's point. Even self described nice guys don't give much of a shit about the welfare of women as a class, their priority will always be making sure we know NAMALT. And they will dismiss and belittle us until we get that message.

makeourfuture · 16/10/2017 10:17

Until we as a sex gain mutant physical strength and transform in to something appropriating x men I'm afraid fuck all will change

I think one way forward, and it is not impossible, is to reform our prosecutorial/judicial system. It may be that innocent until proven guilty does not work for rape. Well, it doesn't. It can be done.

Narnia72 · 16/10/2017 10:40

Has anyone seen the "me too" campaign currently running on facebook? I think it probably only started yesterday, but already 54 of my friends have commented me too. I'm just about to do it.

You know what is good though - the number of threads on here and the discussions elsewhere that show the growing awareness and anger against this kind of male behaviour.

I am hoping that we are at a pivotal moment, and that these discussions bring about a sea change.

Computer - your attempts at humour just come across as condescending and belittling the really important points people are trying to make. Can you stop now with the smart alec comments, and think about what so many people are saying. Be one of the decent men out there and help to stop this misogny in its tracks.

OP posts:
ThumbWitchesAbroad · 16/10/2017 10:44

Yes,my newsfeed is full of friends posting the "Me too", or responding to mine and others' posts.

Interestingly, there had been, up until a short while ago, NO male responses on any of my friends' (or my) thread - and then suddenly one popped up with "men suffer too you know".
FFS!!

Most of us had realised how depressingly many of us have been through some level of assault or harassment - we were discussing starting a "has any woman NOT been assaulted/ harassed" situation to see how many responses we got - and then suddenly there was that male response.

Just can't deal with it, can they.

brasty · 16/10/2017 10:45

Men can post me too. I just haven't seen any of them posting it

OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 10:48

@stitchglitched

I am sympathetic to @peanut2017 who seems very intelligent and persuasive.

The likes of @Stitchgliched and @Alabama will never be taken seriously. Not unless you change. Your first challenge, in your struggle, might be to learn to express yourself like an adult

You seem to like being angry and having a scapegoat.

I was looking for some enlightenment, which I think Peanut has offered.

I'm sympathetic, but when you resort to all this demonising behaviour - "Under the surface of every so called nice guy there lurks an evil misogynist" - then I feel like giving up.

Luckily, you're all trapped inside a computer and you can't get past the glass screen and hurt me.

Still, i'd like to thank some of you for helping me to understand you better.

I'm off now. I'm going to pretend to be nice to some random women, so I can secretly be horrible to them when they're not looking. That's the Patriarchy's plan for today

OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 10:50

@Narnia72

Sorry, I only just noticed your comment

Yes, I'm sorry, I take your point.

I will take your advice. No offence intended

peanut2017 · 16/10/2017 10:58

Mittens technically we both are right as different pipes throughout the centuries have different opinions on this. Some of them did enforce a no marriage rule based on the possibility of losing valuable property to their wives and children

peanut2017 · 16/10/2017 10:58

Sorry that should say Popes not pipes

MissAlabamaWhitman · 16/10/2017 11:02

Hurt you?

Don't judge me by patriarchal standards.

Just because I'm angry, I have no will to physically hurt anybody.

It's very odd that you would think so.

MillicentFawcett · 16/10/2017 11:04

Re the 'Me Too' thing, this has just come up on a (male) friend's feed: "I've done it.
I'm not proud of it, but it needs to be said. All of these brave women posting "Me, too," and then people saying "It's time for men to start saying 'I've done it.'"
Well, I've done it. At times in my life, I've been a creep, shown poor impulse control and said inappropriate things, lacked empathy, been a shitty ally, leveraged my privilege. Ask any woman- It's not some profoundly different "Other" who does this.
I do my best to be a good person, do my best to listen to the women around me, and I have done my best to grow into the responsibilities of manhood, but I'm not going to pretend I was never a dickhead.
And I am genuinely sorry about it"

Yep. It's most men. And you know, this is how to react to lots of women saying they've experienced sexual violence. To listen to them and to reflect about how you may have played a part in that. Any other reaction and you're part of the fucking problem.

Mittens1969 · 16/10/2017 11:08

That might have been the motivation for some of them for sure, as there have always been a lot of priests who have flouted the celibacy laws and had mistresses and families. But the reason it’s as ingrained as it has become is definitely theological.

The Catholic Church has always been good at providing loopholes. They don’t allow divorce but popes have always been willing to agree marriages to be annulled (for the wealthy!). They don’t allow priests to marry but they are allowed to have mistresses and have children.

HornyTortoise · 16/10/2017 11:56

Big films made when for want of a better phrase "men could get away with it" are still being watched where the wrong message is still being portrayed.The most notorious example I can think of is Star wars where Han solo pushes himself onto princess lair.

This reminded me of something I once read, and for some reason have bookmarked.

www.cracked.com/blog/how-men-are-trained-to-think-sexual-assault-no-big-deal/

I do think whoever put that togehter has a point in a way. But also think its the responsibility of men to control their fucking behaviour and not blame it on films they once saw.

ReanimatedSGB · 16/10/2017 11:59

OhThis: Thing is, I don't want or need you to like me, or approve of my posting style. Your opinion of me is completely irrelevant. I regard men-as-a-class with amused derision, most of the time, and am only 'nice' to men who I actually like.
And I am all in favour of mocking and annoying men who butt into a discussion among women to mansplain and 'well actually I think you'll find' and 'just let me play devil's advocate'. Their' insights' are not new, not special, not remotely convincing. They're just the same old bollocks.

MrsOverTheRoad · 16/10/2017 12:05

My husband is a feminist and it's because of Mumsnet. I shared what I'd learned here.

It's changing...slowly...but it is. All the shit's getting brushed out from under the rug and that makes everything stink for a while.

But then there'll be new rules about shitting there...and people will be more watchful.

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