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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 07:55

@MillicentFawcett

You can dignify any sort of prejudice by saying "studies say that"

By the definition of domestic violence, which includes prolonged verbal abuse, I guarantee you that everyone man in the world would be entitled to tell a survey that he's a victim of domestic violence. That's if anyone ever becomes motivated to seek publicity on the back of a 'survey'

It's one of the crudest marketing tricks in the book. Gain publicity for your company by conducting a 'survey'. To maintain the veneer of respectability, they do this through a third party that specialises in conducting surveys that always come up with results that perfectly dovetail with whatever marketing message the client is pushing.

It's sad that there are so many women desperate to believe that all men are rapists and that all the world's problems - and all their own failings - can be blamed on The Patriarchy.

Luckily, they all seem to confine themselves online, so the simplest thing to do is avoid threads like this one.

But I was drawn in

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 08:06

ohthis

Good grief are you still here

Have you found a little freind

To be honest your first couple of posts were wronger than a wrong thing on wrongville (love that phrase)

But they were vaguely amusing and i thought maybe just maybe that you were actually going to take some of the points on board

But the more you post the more of a something i cant say or i will be deleted you sound Smile

I think you are indeed, as Dr said, licking the stamps

Lots of righteously angry women on here and you want to be 'light hearted' and worse still, cos there is nothing wrong with lighthearted in the right place, patronising and belittling

I am constantly disappointed on here by the actions of a handful of men. I give them the benefit of the doubt and i am always wrong about them

Silly rufus Sad

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 08:07

Oh and i know fluffy isnt really your friend Grin

Mittens1969 · 16/10/2017 08:22

@ethelfleda, I’m so sorry your stepmother did that, she sounds like she was jealous of you.

Women do get involved in abusing other women. In other parts of the world, MILs take the lead in abusing young wives. Women undertake FGM procedures, allow their daughters to go through it. They can also be fully involved in trafficking other women.

This is very often a case of victim becoming perpetrator, though. These women were originally the victims and they probably think, I went through it so now it’s your turn.

We do need to be honest about this, though, it’s not just men who hurt women.

OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 08:31

@Rufustherenegadereindeer1

Sorry you feel that way.

I was impressed by some of your points.

But the personal abuse doesn't really help. Ganging up with Dr whatsit doesn't add authority. Just detracts really.

I'm disappointed how quickly people resort to insults.

I have never insulted anyone here or belittled them. I just find these conspiracy theories a bit wild.

I was hoping for a high class of exchange than "eff off" and "you're a stamp licker". That doesn't hurt me - well it does a tiny bit, but then again, it's only a keyboard exchange - but it does disappoint me. I had high hopes for you.

Why don't we keep trying and try to be more positive?

Let's do lunch! I'll get my people to call your people and let's see if we can bring an end to oppression for ever.

I'll bring a sense of shame, and you can bring your sense of righteous indignation and your conspiracy theories and your personal insults

ReanimatedSGB · 16/10/2017 08:34

Yup, women can be cruel, aggressive, unfair, dishonest and all the rest of it. Women are, after all, humans. It's even true that individual women can be horribly abusive to individual men.

But, for thousands of years, almost every single society has been founded on the idea that women are men's inferiors, men's property and exist for the benefit of men. This is one of the main reasons religions were invented - to come up with a supernatural justification for men's control of women's bodies, lives, and reproductive capacity (all religions feature myths about special people who were born in a way that didn't involve a womb and vagina, or involved something other than a woman having sex).
In the UK, rape in marriage was only designated a criminal offence in 1991 - up until then, marriage meant that women had no right to refuse sex with their husbands.
Women are still reminded, on a daily basis, that they need to please men, and be appealing to men - and if they do not placate and submit to men, they will suffer.

ReanimatedSGB · 16/10/2017 08:35

Ohthis - are you trying to play Creepy Fucker Bingo? Your answer to posters who fail to be charmed by your frankly tedious attempts at 'wit' is to ask them on a date?

WhatWouldGenghisDo · 16/10/2017 08:38

The problem is that everybody is brought up to see women as less important, more responsible than men. Women are taught to feel shame when we break the rules (express anger, stand up for our own interests, set boundaries, refuse to look pretty etc) and we bring up our daughters and judge our acquaintances according to the rules we follow ourselves. It's taken me decades to really see what's going on here.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 08:42

I only bring the insults im afraid

And loads of swearing and heaps of sarcasm

Dont flatter yourself , you are really not that important in the grand scheme of things

And you still cant see my point can you

So now im ganging up and insulting you Grin i just agreed with a comment...betcha you didnt feel you were ganging up with fluffy when you agreed with her

Are you actually 10???

Anyway, you are just not listening so this is honestly and disappointingly not worth the effort

makeourfuture · 16/10/2017 08:56

for thousands of years

I think there has always been a struggle, but the nature of society has always placed a high level of importance on domination. We will slaughter anyone for a bauble. Victory in battle, for so long, was the ultimate good.

The answer to the original question is yes. We are savage, capable of anything at all. We must constantly work to elevate ourselves.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 09:06

Stamp licker isnt an insult

Where on earth did he get that idea from

dr said he was licking stamps...ie actually helping the patriarchy send out their letters...it was clever

Unless i have missed something Grin

dr are you not really clever Hmm

OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 09:11

@reanimatedSGB is a case in point.

A brilliant post one minute. Factual and well thought out and Full of persuasive arguments.

Then the very next minute, the next post, SGB has taken a very light hearted joke far too seriously, and launched into personal abuse.

No I don't want women to feel inferior.

Why would I be on here trying to learn from you if I thought like that?

At the risk of being even more creepy, I do sympathise and I do feel some shame.

I just want to point out - from my perspective, I'm not mansplaining - that the generalisations, the conspiracy theories and the personal insults don't make your arguments more persuasive.

I'm sorry if my tone was all wrong and I wasn't trying to be unpleasant.

Anyway, I won't bore you any longer.

Have a lovely day. It's glorious outside.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 09:12

The problem is that everybody is brought up to see women as less important, more responsible than men. Women are taught to feel shame when we break the rules (express anger, stand up for our own interests, set boundaries, refuse to look pretty etc) and we bring up our daughters and judge our acquaintances according to the rules we follow ourselves.
I agree. And I feel some conflict because I own Grin a husband and I have a son (as well as a dd) and I know that NAMALT, I do, but even with the exceptions, the decent men, they're still raised within a patriarchal society. I also meet so many men (in RL and elsewhere) who are fully arseholeish and validate the OP's point only too well.
The couple of times I've overheard my DH calling a male friend out objectionable sexist remarks have given me some reassurance about his political stance on some issues but even shows irritating signs of white middle class male entitlement and privilege at times.
I'll keep him for now but if I find out he's been on this thread taking the piss I'll be most miffed.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 09:13

Calling a male friend out ON objectionable sexist remarks.

Getsorted21 · 16/10/2017 09:14

Did anyone watch the louis theroux doc last night? Depressing.

What conspiracy theories are you referring too Oh

peanut2017 · 16/10/2017 09:14

I would love to genuinely understand why you don’t think the patriarchy exist? Do you fully understand what it means and represents? It’s not about individuals it is a system which can manifest itself through government, business, politics, religion and the structure of each.

Why does the Catholic Church not allow women as priests, priests to marry or people to take control of their own bodies especially women? Years ago bishops could in fact marry however this was changed as their wives were getting their property.

It just baffles me that you can’t at least open your mind to the fact that these structures exist. Doesn’t mean all men sit around a big table and openly say ‘let’s keep the women down’.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 09:14

I'm a fucking genius Rufus Grin
But I'm not a medical doctor

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 09:14
Shock
OhThisbloodyComputer · 16/10/2017 09:15

@Rufustherenegadereindeer1

Nobody licks stamps any more. You either frank the envelope with a machine, or use pre-sticky stamps. Nobody has had to lick stamps for years.

It shows how stuck in your ways the feminine elite really are!

I imagine some poor man has to do that work for you, while you sip gin and tonic and surf Mumsnet for males to bully

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 09:16

I've heard that Webb chap speak about patriarchy. So I think it's possible for men to see it. What I've seen of him I quite like.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 09:17

Robert Webb, that's the guy.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 09:25

Right!!!!

Who's grassed me up????

How the fuck does he know that i sip G and T while surfing mumsnet looking for victims

Although i am thinking of envelopes Blush

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/10/2017 09:26

Well apparently not dr

You dont lick stamps you lick envelopes

Are you sure you are not a dr...its just that i have this irritating pain in my bottom Grin

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 16/10/2017 09:29

Anyway, I won't bore you any longer. Hmm

here rufus Gin

WhatWouldGenghisDo · 16/10/2017 09:30

Gin cheers!