Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
hiphopcat · 15/10/2017 22:59

Saying all or most men are sexist creeps who would cheat at the drop of a hat, come onto you, hit you, be aggressive and so on makes me feel uncomfortable, because I think many men are decent and respectful human beings, and would not do any of this (well, not most of it anyway!)

That said; sadly, I don't know a single female over the age of 14/15, who hasn't been letched at, wolf whistled at, groped, propositioned (sometimes by married men,) stalked, physically attacked or called a bitch or a cunt or a lesbian, (for spurning a man's advances,) had the boss try it on, been thought of as knowing less because they are female, been passed over for promotion at work for being female, lost a job opportunity because they spurned a man's advances, and been talked down to or ignored by other men when she is with her male partner, (with comments like 'you let her drive the car?' YEP that happened to me the other week!) Hmm

It's awful, but I don't know how to make it stop.

I think some of them DO have this feeling that women are somehow beneath them, and women are not quite as bright/smart/savvy as them.

My husband tries sometimes to mansplain shit to me, and he doesn't mean to be horrible or condescending, he just DOES it. Hmm And I just fucking GLARE at him, like 'why the fuckety fuck are you explaining this to me. I FUCKING. KNOW. HOW. TO. DO. IT! Angry

One example is him 'guiding me' on a parallel park the other day. I have been driving over two decades and do a MUCH sassier parallel park than him. Fuck. OFF. I have actually taken him to one side before now, (when he has mansplained something simple,) and said 'serious question, do you think I am THAT fucking stupid?' He looks perplexed.

In moments of normality, he sometimes says he knows I am more smart and intelligent than him (I am.)

(By the way, I am not gonna waste my time responding to @ohthisbloodycomputers hideous ramblings.)

DJBaggySmalls · 15/10/2017 23:01

Why is it when women call out men on their shitty behaviour we get told we hate men?
When men stop acting like they hate us we'll stop going on about it.

hiphopcat · 15/10/2017 23:02

I mean not all women know have had ALL I mentioned happen to them, but they have all had at least three of those things happen. Some women have had more than three of those things happen!

OhThisbloodyComputer · 15/10/2017 23:03

@missalabamawhitman

I assumed that the level of anger exuded in your posts was indicative of insane hatred of a complete stranger.

I apologise for the mistake

I'm now prepared to accept that this is your normal tone of voice. So I will try to avoid talking to you.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 23:07

Women hate men. Well that's evident in the huge numbers of men assaulted, abused and murdered by women isn't it.
Yes it's definitely a man who should be having nightmares

OhThisbloodyComputer · 15/10/2017 23:08

@hiphopcat

(By the way, I am not gonna waste my time responding to @ohthisbloodycomputers hideous ramblings.)

That has made my night! Obviously not that smart then.

WhatWouldGenghisDo · 15/10/2017 23:10

computer old chap, being angry about sexual violence towards women and girls is reasonable and proportionate

hiphopcat · 15/10/2017 23:13

Stop feeding it. Wink

LondonNicki · 15/10/2017 23:17

I'm normally not so wound up about male privilege and casual misogyny because thankfully I don't see it at my place of work or in my relationships but this week with all the news about HW and other horrible stories I'm very angry.

We need to stick together and support each other.

There are some great threads on here. It's been heartening to read. X

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 23:17

More farewells than Ozzy Osborne

MissAlabamaWhitman · 15/10/2017 23:22

insane hatred is it?

I'll just stand over here, happy to hold your shovel once you've finished digging.

OhThisbloodyComputer · 15/10/2017 23:23

@WhatWouldGenghisDo

Please stop laying a charge of 'sexual violence enabler' on me, as a justification for @MissAlabama being hateful to me.

I've never ever tried to defend rape or sexual violence. Of course I think that's awful.

I was being sworn at for questioning the mythology of 'The Patriarchy'

I don't deny there is a male led society. I don't defend it as, oddly, working in an industry where women are often my bosses has worked out nicely for me. They're often much better to work for.

I'm making the small point that there isn't some kind of mass plot by men. And we aren't taught to hate women. Why are so many men awful? I'll have to think about that.

Yes, O do feel some shame over it. I have a theory I could advance about why we act so badly, but I think it would be a dangerous strategy to throw myself open to the mercy of the court of Mumsnet. (Particularly with the judge and jury that are sitting on this thread)

My main point to MissAlabama was Swearing at people doesn't work.

Fluffypinkpyjamas · 15/10/2017 23:25

Of course you're being ridiculous. You cannot and should not brand all males by the small minority representing negative behaviour. A thread asking for negative experiences is not representative of females as a whole. It's a tiny number of females. Just as the men in these news articles are a small number of males.Your inflammatory title utterly degrades whatever argument you intend to make

^ this exactly.

Oh and for the fucking genius who blames mothers raising sons, wtaf?!

alltheworld · 15/10/2017 23:28

On a play date, the boys started calling each other girls as an insult. I told them off. A mother of boys said I was ot t.

MissAlabamaWhitman · 15/10/2017 23:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

OhThisbloodyComputer · 15/10/2017 23:31

Sorry @peanut2017

I was joking when I said that bit about "nightmare about how much you hate me"

I don’t hate you - just wish you could open your mind to what we are saying and look into it?

Yes, I take your point.

I really am going to bed now.

What a time to be alive!

KrytensNanobots · 15/10/2017 23:33

On a play date, the boys started calling each other girls as an insult. I told them off. A mother of boys said I was ot t.

I'm a mother of boys. I'd pull them up on it if they were calling each other girls as insults. So not entirely sure what the fact that a mother of boys said you were OTT for. That's surely just the fact the mum is a numpty.

MillicentFawcett · 15/10/2017 23:39

@Flufflypinkpyjamas: I posted this link on another thread but it seems apposite here too: www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/statistics/statistics-academic-studies/ Global street harassment statistics.

In most countries, well over half of women say they've experienced it. So it's really not a 'tiny number' of women. And if it's 80-90% of women experiencing it like it is in many of the studies, you know that it's not a small number of males committing the crimes. It's bloody loads of them.

Mittens1969 · 15/10/2017 23:57

I’ve known some lovely men, including my DH and DBIL, who are absolutely appalled at male violence towards women. OTOH, there have been others, mainly from my childhood, but also my DSis’s ex, who tipify the behaviour that posters are alluding to.

One thing I remember my father saying about this subject: ‘a woman’s infidelity is worse than a man’s infidelity.’ And he was constantly paranoid about whether she was cheating. One rule for her, another for him, obviously.

There are some very warped men around, no question about that. As has been shown once again in the news this week. But no, we’re obviously not saying that it’s true of all men, it’s just that it’s clearly a problem that is not going away.

user1497863568 · 16/10/2017 00:22

“then you would know the secrets of how the billion strong 'old boy network' can ruthlessly act in unison in a split second.”

This. Predators and collaborators who then blame their victims, both women and men. I was constantly fending off this type when I was young, as were my brothers. It’s a very different picture when you’re on the ‘wrong side of the tracks’.

kateandme · 16/10/2017 00:25

Great words

Insomnibrat · 16/10/2017 01:03

Having recently learned some home truths about a very close male member of my family which I'm struggling to reconcile with who I previously thought he was, and pausing briefly to consider the innumerable things I have encountered within my own life to date, which I have constantly normalised and excused I can only say that:

YANBU, OP.

Fluffypinkpyjamas · 16/10/2017 02:59

Why are you mentioning me Millicent Hmm

MillicentFawcett · 16/10/2017 07:41

Because you quoted this: "It's a tiny number of females. Just as the men in these news articles are a small number of males." And said 'Exactly'

I was just pointing out that was a load of bollocks

ethelfleda · 16/10/2017 07:52

Haven't RTFT but what depresses me also is the amount of women I know that buy into the idea that women are the weaker sex. A very close friend of mine and her partner were telling me a story about his step mother - she had acted terribly and sent a very aggressive text to her step daughter on her wedding day! I said that she was totally unreasonable and shouldn't have acted that way... BOTH of them then proceeded to explain that "women do behave this way don't they, this is how they handle conflict.... etc etc" I was pretty offended by this as if Im not capable of being rational and dealing with conflict correctly because I have a vagina?!