Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

[Narnia72]

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

• Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

• 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

I think computer answers the OP's question with a resounding YANBU

Drkroger exactly. Always the same bullshit. Don’t like what we are saying then reverts to type! What is a nice girl?

YANBU

As much as we have a problem with active misogynists, i think there are huge swathes of ‘passive’ misogynists to deal with too. I’ve been very disappointed with some of my male family members this week.

My DS is going through a phase (I hope) of not wanting to play with girls. When I challenged this behaviour I was told not to be ridiculous. When I asked what they’d say if DS had announced that he didn’t want to play with non-white kids I was told that I was being even more ridiculous.

Also men I used to respect seem to think that HW’s victims shouldn’t have been so naive. That by being actresses they shouldn’t be surprised when this happens.

These are men who would be horrified if you called them misogynists.

I worry for my son.

Why can’t the conversation be looked at objectively instead of thinking women are having a go at men? Why not be brave like the guy I mentioned earlier Tom Meagher whose wife was raped and murdered and is now an advocate for women? Doesn’t mean he hates men does it?

No just means he can see what is happening and how young boys need guidance about important topics such as consent.

Also receive do you check out ‘Asking For It’ by Louise O’Neill - thought provoking and chilling

@peanut2017

one of the weird ideas I alluded to is this idea of a Patriarchy

I promise you, I have never had a single dealing with The Patriarchy.
I'm obviously not on their email list.

I'll grant you that society was structured differently in the past, because that was the way humanity evolved,because different skills were needed. Physical strength was valued for work. it doesn't count for much in most jobs now.

Society has changed gradually. But i don't think there is a resistance led by men. I must be a low grade man or something, as I've never been party to any of this elite group's plotting.

I hate hierarchical work structures, which are very bloke-ish and awful, which is why I work alone. I'm in a sector where there are many empowered women, and they are brilliant to work for.

I don't want to insult anyone and I'm sorry I got carried away.

I do find these conspiracy theories a bit rum.

Sometimes events are a product of the times and changing social attitudes. there are no plotting groups of elitists.

At least that's what I say in public.

Men benefit a lot from the societal assumption that women are less valid as people than they are. They have better jobs than they would have if they were in genuine competition with women. They do less housework. They aren't expected to do wifework or worry about their female relatives' emotions. They are centred in sex, leisure-time arrangements, conversation and family decision-making. Most media is created with their tastes and preferences in mind. Etc, etc.

They like being important, who wouldn't? They aren't our allies generally speaks no because believing we were people just like them and acting on that belief would make a material difference to their comfort.

Speaks no = speaking

YY Genghis

Bumbleymummy- if you're surrounded by lovely and decent men, good for you. Can I ask, what do they do to help stop the men who aren't. Do they speak up, do they challenge their peers, do they stop their fellow men when they make comments about appearance and sex? Because those decent men are the ones who will be influential enough to effect a change. If every man who hears or sees offensive behaviour at any level calls it out as not ok, then - and only then - will men become ashamed by their behaviour.

It's a long path, they will grow sick of doing it, but if they are as decent and lovely as you say, they will do it, for you, for your sisters and daughters so that things will start to change.

Rather than directing your anger at all the women on this thread who are sharing their experiences, why not direct your energies to helping other women to be able to say, like you, I've never been adversely affected by men's sexual predatory behaviour.

All the women on this thread who are outraged by the stereotype of men we're talking about could do the same. And the men who feel we are maligning them.

Thisbloodycomputer you do it. And get your mates to do the same.

I’m not suggesting The Patriarchy are an actual bonafide organization more like an unwritten rule that men especially in power hold onto.

To suggest that I am and that this is a conspiracy theory is just wrong on so many levels.

The fact that you don’t see this system in place speaks volumes about you. It’s so ingrained in people that you even see women even on here you can’t see it and the damage it does.

Look how many women are attacked, are sex slaves, can’t access abortion, have their genitals mutilated, not paid the same as men? It goes on and on. Rape was allowed in a marriage up until recently. Contraception the same and is still not accessible to so many people.

Why not investigate further rather than think we are saying ‘you are bad’ and that this is a personal attack on you? Why not call out shitty behavior that you see by men?

@WhatWouldGenghisDo

I'm sorry you have no men in your life that you consider an ally.

However, your sample size is probably not enough to extrapolate that no men could ever be allies to women.

This exemplifies what I was saying to Peanut2017, above, that there are some weird misconceptions about men about.

Please explain how you can come to this conclusion?

And no, Genghis and DrK'sfavourite, I am not weeping out of self pity. I'm just baffled. Still, maybe I shouldn't take it personally, because this is the internet after all.

I am genuinely interested in how you these terribly pessimistic theories about men are proposed and seconded.

If every man who hears or sees offensive behaviour at any level calls it out as not ok, then - and only then - will men become ashamed by their behaviour.

Don't seem to experience this,bad behavior, as much now as it was a few years ago FWIW

*Men benefit a lot from the societal assumption that women are less valid as people than they are. They have better jobs than they would have if they were in genuine competition with women. They do less housework. They aren't expected to do wifework or worry about their female relatives' emotions. They are centred in sex, leisure-time arrangements, conversation and family decision-making. Most media is created with their tastes and preferences in mind. Etc, etc.

They like being important, who wouldn't? They aren't our allies generally speaks no because believing we were people just like them and acting on that belief would make a material difference to their comfort.*

This is a great post..

WHY WOULD THEY GIVE UP THEIR PRIVILEGE?

Would you? Honestly, if the roles were reversed, would you?

Be honest with yourself and gain some perspective of the magnitude of the problem that we are dealing with.

FGS, WAKE UP

The more pompous and condescending the man, the more scared he is of women. Part of that fear is that women will not take him seriously - and then what will he do? Underlying that is the fear that women, collectively, will just stop servicing men. That they won't marry, won't have sex with men, won't have children, won't do domestic work, won't display any interest when a man wants to talk at them, won't obey men any more.

@MissAlabamaWhitman

Swearing at people doesn't work. I'd try a different approach. I didn't take anything you said seriously after that.

I prefer the line taken by @Narnia72 who was polite and patiently outlined their point.

However, since I work for myself, I don't encounter massive amounts of sexism or groupthink, as I live a lonely life. So I'm not in a position to confront sexism. Also, the one time in a group of men - drinking say, or playing football - women are rarely discussed. Mainly because people are mostly married. I know plenty of men for whom the romance is no longer present in their marriage. But we're not all the scheming misogynist of popular legend.

Anyway I should go to bed now.

I'm going to have nightmares about how much you hate me.

It's a good thing that you're not my target audience then, isn't it?

I'm not stupid, I know you're a lost cause.

Fwiw I can hardly blame you (see above)

Computer you are quite clearly on the Patriarchy's mailing list. Don't be coy.

Telling that you saw fit to avail me of your preferences though, don't you think?

Should I automatically align my communication to more adequately fit with them? And why ever should that be?

Hate you?

Oh they really have done a number on you haven't they?

You're so important because you are in possession of a penis that I, a stranger actually hate you.

Fucking priceless you are 🤣

i suspect you're licking the stamps

@DrKrogersfavouritepatient

Yes, you've got me there. You saw through my pathetic male deviosity.

I've enjoyed talking to you and I will consider what you said. Honestly.

If it's any consolation, I think men who listen to you with these complaints.

My attitude to Julie Bindel changed over the years. Its terrible to admit, I used to see her on telly and thing "Oh, FFS, what is it now?"

These days I see her as the voice of reason and, looking back, most of her points were valid.

Anyway, I will shut up now. I'm sorry for everything and I will think about some of the stuff you said.

(I still can't accept the stuff about 'the patriarchy though..)

Ohthisbloody I'm going to have nightmares about how much you hate me.*
*
This comment above says it all really. Comes
down to women must hate men? Why is that? It’s too easy to go for that line. It is revealing again your true feelings? You want women to love you and if they disagree they must hate you?

I don’t hate you - just wish you could open your mind to what we are saying and look into it?

Men benefit a lot from the societal assumption that women are less valid as people than they are. They have better jobs than they would have if they were in genuine competition with women. They do less housework. They aren't expected to do wifework or worry about their female relatives' emotions. They are centred in sex, leisure-time arrangements, conversation and family decision-making. Most media is created with their tastes and preferences in mind. Etc, etc.

Great post! And I completely agree with the OP.

I don’t think men go out of their way to be arseholes, it’s something engrained from all what is mentioned above. Is it testosterone, or society that feeds it, consciously or sub?

I work in a very male dominated area, and see varying levels of sexist comments from the lighthearted all the way to creepy and pervy.

I know many men who are all lovely, but don’t doubt they are different amongst their peers. In fact, one of the best men I know, great husband, father, friend and colleague, still cheated on his wife last week on a works do, and there was no condemnation from any of the other men who were out. Whilst not a sexual predator or rapist, It just goes to show what is accepted within male circles, even amongst the ‘good ones’.