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Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
WhatWouldGenghisDo · 15/10/2017 21:35

Women aren't allowed to call out men (as a class) for being sexually, domestically and occupationally exploitative of women, because if we did it a lot, people might start to notice that it's true.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 21:39

No bloody computer
What would make a difference (re: this exchange) is if you wouldn't suggest that men are victims of some fucking propogangda and newly devised hate speech only to follow that up with condescending remarks when I list some of the common derogatory terms used to describe women.

PonderThis · 15/10/2017 21:42

See, in my opinion, even a lot of these so called 'nice men' have very eyebrow raising opinions, even if only mild

Lots of them are family and I know for a fact they see women differently. They aren't nasty and would most likely do everything they could to, for example, help a lady after she'd dropped her shopping.

But they still make lots of sexist remarks etc

OhThisbloodyComputer · 15/10/2017 21:42

Well, I'm pleased you are both convinced you have won a victory.

I would like to come away from this having learned something though.

I can't defend the fact that "your sex was F*cked for centuries" as

@DrKrogersfavouritepatient points out.

But what would be the point of having a battle with, say, my three sisters, whom I love (even the one that's a pain in the arse) just because of previous injustices.

Do you feel more kinship with the victims of sexism from 100 years ago than you do with your male relatives. Do you look at your dad and growl about how awful his kind were to Joan of Arc?

I like to think I'm a completely different product from what went on before. I'm not going to pretend I haven't been sexist or said dreadful things.

If we are going to be held to account for previous atrocities, you'd better start apologising to all the descendants of the victims of the British Empire.

I didn't realise you were born with a score card and a series of age old grudges that need to be avenged.

Anyway, I will leave it there.

I accept your points though, And I love your devastating use of icons. That really knocked me for six. [INSERT SMILING FACE]

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 21:44

Bimbo, cougar

WhatWouldGenghisDo · 15/10/2017 21:48

This thread isn't about female victims of patriarchal oppression from 100 years ago. It's about all the patriarchially-justified shit that's being visited on us now. Reread the op.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 21:49

feel free to act like a smart arse. I was only countering your position about women devising derogatory language about men.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 21:49

convinced you have won a victory.

Oh grow up Grin

Being sarcastic isnt a victory

In a battle of wits i don't consider myself to be victorious if i am against an unarmed opponent Wink

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 21:50

That last one is a wink

I am fucking nailing the smilies!

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 21:52

And about eleventy billion times people have said that they dont hate all men

And that we love our boys...of every age

People are trying to point out that shitty things are still happening to women and children

And you think its a game...

OhThisbloodyComputer · 15/10/2017 21:53

@DrKRogerFavouritPatient

I can see why you are the favourite patient of Dr K Rogers.

I wasn't trying to be patronising. i was trying to be light hearted. Nobody really wins in a keyboard war, and I was hoping we could have a nice conversation.

@PonderThis exemplifies my point. The idea that under even 'nice men' in your family there is a secret wilful ignorance of women that will eventually be expressed in devious ways.

Could it be that there is mutual miscomprehension?

Some women have very weird ideas about men.

WhatWouldGenghisDo · 15/10/2017 21:54

MRAs don't think it's a game rufus. Ime they take derailing threads like this very seriously.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 21:55

ohthisbloody

there is still time for a nice conversation

Go on say something nice

Notthemessiah · 15/10/2017 22:02

I think far too many women have overestimated the effect that 40 or 50 years of feminism have had on moderating mens attitudes or behaviour, but more particularly the fact that it could have made any real impact on the fact that sex was, is, and will remain the single biggest driver in everything that men say and do.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 22:04

thisbloodycomputer
Are you referring to Carl Rogers? And if so what makes you think I would be his favourite patient? FYI my username is not a nod to the father if humanistic psychology

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 22:05

Ah, "hysterical " how apt at this juncture

stitchglitched · 15/10/2017 22:06

I think OhThis has just shown that we are never going to be able to convince most men to give much of a shit. Even the polite ones who just want a 'nice conversation' see fit to belittle and minimise women's fears and lived experiences, even down to comparing the epidemic of male violence with women coining an inoffensive internet acronym.

peanut2017 · 15/10/2017 22:07

Ohthisbloody Some women have very weird ideas about men.

Can you expand on what you mean by the above?

OhThisbloodyComputer · 15/10/2017 22:07

@Rufustherenegadereindeer1

Sorry, I don't think it's a game. Never said that.

Anyway, you have made some good points (hope that's not patronising) so I will leave it there as I should get way from this computer.

Have a lovely evening.

I've had a word with Patriarchal Industrial Complex, and they've agreed to call off the organised oppression of all women for a trail period.

I showed them some of the posts from this debate and some of them were shocked.

We are no longer going to force girls to be lovely.

And the systematic derision of women is to be scaled down and eventually scrapped.

When you think about it, it seems illogical for men to hate women, seeing how they owe their creation and formative years to their mothers.

The Patriarchy - which I'm sure you will agree is highly organised - has promised to stop training boys to hate women, and somehow over-riding instinct that all males have to be in awe of their motherly mentors.

(How the patriarchy achieve this is a secret which I cannot divulge. Because then you would know the secrets of how the billion strong 'old boy network' can ruthlessly act in unison in a split second.

It's bad enough that you have already managed to work out some of our evil intentions.

I hope this helps

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 22:08

Yes stitch I fear you are correct

stitchglitched · 15/10/2017 22:09

Point proven further. It's easy to turn everything into a joke when you are the one being raped.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 22:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

stitchglitched · 15/10/2017 22:09

*aren't the one being raped! FFS.

peanut2017 · 15/10/2017 22:13

Ohthisbloody your last post really says it all about where you stand on this. Finally you have revealed your true feelings.

The patriarchy does exist in business, politics etc and women are at a distinct disadvantage as we didn’t create the system but are still trying to work around its bullshit!

As the main care providers of children we are put at a disadvantage because we have to take time out to rear children and the system doesn’t support women either staying at home or going out to work.

It just boggles me how people can’t see this system and it negatively hurts women. Go educate yourself

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 22:15

And he was masquerading as one of the good guys . God help us