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AIBU?

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Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
WhatWouldGenghisDo · 15/10/2017 20:53

Mittens Flowers

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 20:55

mittens 💐

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 20:57

Oh, and thank goodness for prostitutes who provide their services thereby preventing men from raping women . It would be funny if it didn't make me want to shoot people in the head

HandbagKrabby · 15/10/2017 20:58

I've seen you argue black is white on threads about male sexual violence for years bumbley and I'd love to know what exactly you get out of this?

OhThisbloodyComputer · 15/10/2017 20:58

@whatwouldGenhisdo

I'm not denying that there aren't some odd men out there. And that we can be dreadful.

I don't understand this idea that 'men have a reflexive expectation that women are there for them'. Where did this come from?

Neither did I say that NAMALT was evidence of man-hating. I think the fact that you have a quite varied and sophisticated lexicon of terms for belittling men is telling.

Thanks @CherryChasingDotMuncher

For all our faults, men don't have our own formalised woman-demeaning language. (Just crude swearwords I suppose)

I'm not defending all the rapists and sex offenders, but I do find these weird speculations a bit unhelpful.

If you're going to map out masculinity, don't label the areas you don't understand with 'Here be Dragons'. It's a bit medieval.

bumbleymummy · 15/10/2017 21:01

Nonsense Handbag. What are you getting out of comments like that? Are you bored? I'm not interested in pathetic bunfights, thanks.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 21:02

How is NAMALT belittling

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 21:03

*formalised woman hating language" bitch whore harridan cow nag slut

Doobydoo · 15/10/2017 21:04

Yanbu op.Excellent post.

HandbagKrabby · 15/10/2017 21:04

Literally years and years I've seen your posts saying the same thing. I suppose you get what you want out of it. God knows what that is though.

bumbleymummy · 15/10/2017 21:05

Rufus, it's trying to belittle those of us who stand up for the men in our lives who aren't

OhThisbloodyComputer · 15/10/2017 21:07

@DrKrogersfavouritepatient

Yes, I understand what you mean, but those are very old terms, sometimes dating back to medieval times.
Dreadful, yes. But at least we're not busy thinking up new ones.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 21:07

from my perspective there seems to be a whole lexicon of formalised man hatred. All these acronyms like NAMALT and glib pigeon-holing terms like Mansplaining suggest there is

Well it sounded like you were saying that phrases like namalt and manplaining suggest that there is formalised man hating

And im saying that surely NALMALT suggests that not all men are hated...just the ones that ALT

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 21:07

Cross post bumbley Smile

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 21:09

ohthis

Oh thats fine then

Good point, lot less hurtful if they are old terms that have been used fkr centuries and are still being used to demean women CENTURIES later

Oh wait...

OhThisbloodyComputer · 15/10/2017 21:21

@Rufustherenegadereindeer1

"Good point" you say.

Thank you

I'm glad you have come round to my way of thinking.

No hang on, I think you were being sarcastic.

Yes, it is dreadful that a lot of men say awful things. I'm sorry about that. I do actually feel guilty about it, and I accept that there is much to be ashamed of.

My point was that at least we aren't putting as much energy and creativity into the war of mutual suspicion as women are, with their creation of a new word weapon every day.

Still, I may have to concede defeat on this one

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 21:22

Slag, cow, prick - tease, dog, bint, skirt, bit of stuff, hag, witch, crone, wench, slapper, tart,

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 21:26

If your sex was as fucked off as ours with centuries of abuse you might coin a phrase or two ohthisbloodycomputer
I'm not sure what your point is tbh. There are dozens of derogatory words already in use to describe and deman women. But we're meant to be wary of using terms that might describe our experience of being oppressed?

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 21:27

Demean, not deman
Obvs

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 21:27

I was being sarcastic

Im really pleased that came through...its so difficult to get tone i find

And yes women making up the odd word to insult men is definitely on a par with the amount of rapes and sexual assaults and general violence meted out by some men

Some men must just quake in their bootss...oh no a woman said something a bit off to me

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 21:28

How was the sarcasm in that post

Did i nail it Grin

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 21:29

Top rufus
Nailed

OhThisbloodyComputer · 15/10/2017 21:29

@DrKrogersfavouritepatient

You're right.

Bint is meant affectionately.

I haven't heard crone used for since the Groat went out of circulation for the new roman money. Wench is a lovely word. I hadn't realised that was an insult.

Slag and tart are not every nice, I'll grant you that. Bit primitive though, and they usually make the men who use the phrases look stupid, even in the company of men. (Mind you, I'm not ever going to claim we are all a charming bunch of sophisticates who emerged from the womb with perfect sensibilities).

Would it make any difference if I apologised and said that most men are a work in progress and not beyond redemption?

Bluelonerose · 15/10/2017 21:35

Our attitudes and messages may be modern day but look at what is still out there.
Big films made when for want of a better phrase "men could get away with it" are still being watched where the wrong message is still being portrayed.
The most notorious example I can think of is Star wars where Han solo pushes himself onto princess lair.
Fantastic film so we are still watching today but it has old fashioned values towards women.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 21:35

Thank you dr

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