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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
TheStoic · 15/10/2017 20:07

Think that’s a troll, cherry. Don’t waste your time.

9GreenBottles · 15/10/2017 20:07

I think most men harbour some thoughts and fantasies that would make women consider them creeps if you actually knew what they were thinking - but there are many men who keep this part of themselves under control to a greater or lesser extent. By that I mean there is a spectrum where some great, "respectable" men in relationships, who would never rape or assault a woman, would not be averse to exploring sexual avenues if the opportunity arose, all the way to the men who would never dream of cheating.

You just never know what is going on in another person's head, or what will prompt them to act.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 20:08

sockorphanage
Your friend is an abusive pervert and you are an apologist for the sexual exploitation of girls.

OhThisbloodyComputer · 15/10/2017 20:11

@CherryChasingDotMuncher

Just a minor point.

I was never formally taught that women don't deserve respect. Not sure where you got that from.

Unless you mean the drip effect of The Daily Mail's side bar of shame, which is written by women, for women and mostly about women.

And I do see a lot of stuff in the media that teaches young women that men don't deserve respect. From my perspective there seems to be a whole lexicon of formalised man hatred. All these acronyms like NAMALT and glib pigeon-holing terms like Mansplaining suggest there is.

Although, having said that, you never meet women in real life who use these phrases. Only online.

The women you meet in real life are generally lovely. I don't know what happens to people once they start typing.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 20:16

I use terms such as "mansplaining" in rl. I do appreciate that challenging the status quo/ patriarchy can make some people feel uncomfortable but it needs doing. Recognising that there is a problem with male dominance and male violence is not a misnandrist conspiracy. Its just being awake

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 20:16

The women you meet in real life are generally lovely. I don't know what happens to people once they start typing.

They become more honest I would say. A hell of a lot of women have to control what they say in public for fear of what will happen if they air their true views. Be that everything from expulsion from friendship groups, to becoming known as 'a bitch', all the way to actual violence.

That said, I have used 'mansplaining' in real life, on a few different occasions. Also have pulled friends up on the ridiculous NAMLTing that happens during any convo about male violence. Yes I know NAMLT...and the men who are not like that should not take offense to me discussing the men who ARE like that, tbh. Men should know, that as a group, they are a danger to women. This does not mean every individual male is a danger to each individual female, that should go without saying.

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 20:17

NAMALT I meant both times Blush

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 20:18

And I was never "formally taught " about these issues as a child. It doesn't mean they weren't happening

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 20:18

I was never formally taught that women don't deserve respect. Not sure where you got that from.

Unless you mean the drip effect of The Daily Mail's side bar of shame, which is written by women, for women and mostly about women

Yes I use the DM sidebar as my source. Not the constant assaults, rapes, abuse, jokes, catcalls, harassments in schools and workplaces, and general everyday sexism most of us encounter. Men may not be told outright ‘don’t respect women’ but they are drip fed in many ways that women don’t deserve respect. If they respected them then they wouldn’t make up for 96% of violent crimes.

Rather than sulk about phrases like mansplain and NAMALT have a think about why people use those terms, and what they experience?

I’m so sorry that you sometimes have to encounter women who aren’t ‘lovely’. Must be awful Flowers

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 20:19

I’m also loving the irony of someone who claims mansplaining doesn’t exist, but uses * Just a minor point* before making a really shit point to a woman

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 20:19

I thought NAMALT was Not all men are like that

How is that man hating

WhatALoadOfOldBollocks · 15/10/2017 20:21

I've managed to get to the age of 40 without coming across any horrible ones
Then, dare I say, you have incredibly lucky. I'm late 40s and have had:

Inappropriate comments RE the possible colour of my pubes - by a council worker doing renovations in my home when I was 17

Attempted rape by an ex-boyfriend

Groped repeatedly at work and blamed for it when I complained to my manager. When I went to the union for help the (male) rep told me "Oh I can't believe he'd do that, I've known him years"

Been offered a quick fuck on the desk by the director of another workplace (and I never had anything to do with him, let alone flirted or gave the impression I was up for it with him)

Been stalked by an ex

Lots of wolf-whistling in the street (up until the age of about 25)

Comments by passing male motorists when I've been out running

Men I don't know asking for nude photos

Been groped/sexually assaulted in night clubs (my fault apparently for having a "nice arse")

Married men asking me for sex

Do I think most men are creeps? No or maybe it's that I really don't want it to be the case. But I've encountered plenty; the things I've mentioned are the worst but there's been plenty of twattery, and I've heard enough "banter" to make me a bit more wary of men than I was when I was younger.

he came over and apologised, told me he was mortified and he'd never had said that if he'd known I was his sister's friend
So he was only mortified because you were his sister's friend. Makes it sound like if you were not connected he would've thought his behaviour was fine.

WhatWouldGenghisDo · 15/10/2017 20:27

Most women are 'lovely' because we are trained to be from birth. This puts us at a disadvantage in a world where you get places by being assertive and competitive.

OCSockOrphanage · 15/10/2017 20:28

I did say quite clearly that I thought less of him and in all seriousness, the ex wife behaved atrociously. if there are young girls selling sex on the street in your town (and there will be, perhaps in an area you wouldn't visit (nor would I TBH) then it is a transaction. Doesn't make it less sordid, I agree, but prostitution has always existed. Licensed brothels might be preferable, but are always going to be seedy, drug infested hovels run by abusers, for abusers.

Graceflorrick · 15/10/2017 20:30

Most women are 'lovely' because we are trained to be from birth. This puts us at a disadvantage in a world where you get places by being assertive and competitive

The person who said the above - I’ve just had a eureka moment! You’re so right!

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 20:34

What has the ex wife got to do with him visiting a brothel?

Not that this person exists but you are a good example of an apologist

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 15/10/2017 20:34

Young girls selling sex on the street are being abused and exploited . It's not like buying a hot dog from a street vendor. I mean, it is for your friend obviously, but not for the girls he's sexually abusing

MillicentFawcett · 15/10/2017 20:34

In every single post you have made OCSock - you are implying that men need sex and that women should give it to them. That your son has been hard done by because a girl (who has had the audacity fuck five different blokes) won't fuck him. That your friend was fucked over by his ex-wife so it's okay for him to rape women as long as he pays them.

Women like you are actually part of the problem because you're perpetuating the narrative that men have a need for sex in a way that women don't. I have seen men like your son become very bitter and really hate women because they're not getting sex. And they have been brought up to believe that they deserve it.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 20:36

That your son has been hard done by because a girl (who has had the audacity fuck five different blokes) won't fuck him

That was a dreadful post of ocs

Mittens1969 · 15/10/2017 20:37

he came over and apologised, told me he was mortified and he'd never had said that if he'd known I was his sister's friend

Sounds like he didn’t want his family to know what he was really like, living a double life. Sadly that’s not unusual, a lot of men have done that.

WhooooAmI24601 · 15/10/2017 20:40

Women like you are actually part of the problem because you're perpetuating the narrative that men have a need for sex in a way that women don't. I have seen men like your son become very bitter and really hate women because they're not getting sex. And they have been brought up to believe that they deserve it.

This. In buckets.

I don't think all men are like this. I think a huge amount are, though. And I think many, many women who are outwardly respectable, modern and self-assured are conditioned from birth to accept and tolerate the behaviour of men like this; to see other women as 'competition' or 'less' and thus deserving of what they get. It's not just men, that's where we're going wrong; we're trying to change how we raise our sons but when the fuck are we going to change how we raise our daughters?

bumbleymummy · 15/10/2017 20:42

"Most women are 'lovely' because we are trained to be from birth."

Oh good grief Hmm

WhatWouldGenghisDo · 15/10/2017 20:45

It's not just sex though is it. Men, including really genuinely nice ones, have a reflexive expectation that women are there for them in some way that isn't reciprocal. To smooth their brow when they've had a hard day, to help them understand their own emotions, to provide sex, to notice when the loo roll is about to run out.

The sexual violence is the extreme end of the continuum, but at the soft end, yes pretty much all men and pretty much all women too. We take responsibility for this stuff as reflexively as men abdicate it.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 20:47

Maybe they skipped your training bumbley

The older i get the more I think mine is wearing off

Mittens1969 · 15/10/2017 20:49

Women like you are actually part of the problem because you're perpetuating the narrative that men have a need for sex in a way that women don't. I have seen men like your son become very bitter and really hate women because they're not getting sex. And they have been brought up to believe that they deserve it.

My DM is like this, believes men need sex, because her life with my abusive father taught her that. Her advice to me while I was coping with traumatic memories of childhood SA and couldn’t be intimate with my DH: ‘Lie down and think of England.’ Give a man sex because he can’t do without it.