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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
Graceflorrick · 15/10/2017 19:26

As a female alone you need to be vigilant at night or in isolated locations! That’s not being dramatic, that’s the reality of being female!

OlennasWimple · 15/10/2017 19:27

Has anyone posted the Joe Biden video where he talks to college kids about consent?

He shouldn't need to, TBH, but we do need more powerful standing up and saying that how women (as a class) are treated is unacceptable

ReanimatedSGB · 15/10/2017 19:29

OK, for any human being out alone at night, there is some risk of being robbed. For a female human being, even one who knows that the vast majority of sexual assaults are commited by men you know, there's always the awareness at the back of your mind that, if you are assaulted by a stranger, it will be seen as your fault.

paintingmary · 15/10/2017 19:29

It is a relief to see so many women staying clearly YANBU.

We are not wrong, we are not crazy/jaded/fridgid/man haters/feminazis or any other term of abuse thrown at us when we point out that there is something wrong here.

KrytensNanobots · 15/10/2017 19:31

As a female alone you need to be vigilant at night or in isolated locations!

I am, I'm not daft. I always pre-book registered taxis on nights out for example, walk well lit routes etc.
That's common sense though and not because I'm a lone female at risk.
I don't think it's a healthy state to be in to be constantly on edge for attackers when out and about.
If somebody was following you or acting suspiciously, of course you'd be vigilant but to constantly expect getting jumped must be nerve wracking.

Getsorted21 · 15/10/2017 19:32

but we do need more powerful standing up and saying that how women (as a class) are treated is unacceptable

Completely agree with this. We are not a freaking minority (not that it makes it ok) why do we take this shit? Still reading the full thread and of course not all men are rapists but as I get older the more I think a lot of men enjoy the "power" their sex gives them.

I have said this before on other threads but I really believe if we woke tmw & the majority of the MPs, judges, CEO's, Presidents etc were female a lot of "good" men would not like the new power dynamic.

bumbleymummy · 15/10/2017 19:33

PaintingMary, I imagine most people who disagree with the title haven't opened the thread because they know what it's going to be like. They're right.

Timefortea99 · 15/10/2017 19:33

A male work colleague, Guardian reader, family man, placid, anti racism etc - he tried it on with me which shocked me (genuinely bought his image) but I just rebuffed him and we became friendly. He told me that men were animals and you would not believe how they acted and talked about young girls and women when they were on their own. He told me that most men hated women because women wanted the romance thing but men just wanted sex. He was having affairs all over. I believe he was right.

littlemissangrypants · 15/10/2017 19:36

I was first abused at 11 and have terrible screaming nightmares and flashbacks even now more than 25 years after. My sons have heard me screaming more times than I can count. They have a,ways tried to soothe and protect me. They know what happened and how I was hurt. They know men do awful things to women.
My sons have always made sure the girls and women around them are protected and safe. They have made sure drunk female friends got home safe or they have brought them to ours to sleep in our spare room to make sure they were safe. My eldest even let his girlfriend bite and cut him as it' made her feel better'. He never complained about it even when she beat him.
Everything my children have done suggests they will protect women and speak up for them. According to some people on mumsnet I should be waiting for them to become rapists or wife beaters or evil men. After what my sons learnt about the effect my abuse had on my life and mental health I don't believe they will ever do that to another person.
I struggled to love my sons and trust other men. I met my lovely partner and he too supported me and loved me even while I pushed him away. He doesn't see me as damaged or bad despite the abuse. He holds me when I need to cry. He holds me while I scream and he listens while I tell him about the flashbacks. I don't think any man would be able to rape someone after listening to this.
I know this goes against mumsnettters but I have fought hard to survive and trust. I won't lock my children up in case they rape and I won't ditch my loving partner despite him being a potential rapist just because he has a cock. If I became pregnant again I would not abort a male baby even though he too will grow up to be a potential rapist. It has taken me 20 years to learn to love and trust without fear and I won't surrender that for mumsnetters who think all penises are the enemy.

TheStoic · 15/10/2017 19:37

I am, I'm not daft. I always pre-book registered taxis on nights out for example, walk well lit routes etc.
That's common sense though and not because I'm a lone female at risk

Why do some women do this? Insist they don’t take any precautions and then list the precautions they take? It’s weird.

You think many men are pre-booking registered taxis on a night out?

HandbagKrabby · 15/10/2017 19:39

It's easy to be magnanimous when you're in first place isn't it? You see a lot of men's true colours when they have to treat women on the same level as them.

HandbagKrabby · 15/10/2017 19:43

I don't understand why pointing out there's a large proportion of knobheads walking our streets is reduced to nasty women hate lovely men. Ffs it's worth a bit of introspection to wonder why this is your default position as a woman. Those knobheads won't take it into account if they have an opportunity to harm you.

paintingmary · 15/10/2017 19:44

Littlemiss, I think you have escalated this in your own imagination.

No one is suggesting aborting male babies or divorcing pleasant husbands, the focus has been on accepting that there is a real problem and educating our way out and supporting the next generation.

littlebillie · 15/10/2017 19:45

YANBU I feel the same 😞

littlebillie · 15/10/2017 19:47

However my DH is lovely, My Dd was a very respectful man and my Ds gets his ear bent over all sorts. I think we hear the bad stories not the good.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 19:48

I know this goes against mumsnettters but I have fought hard to survive and trust. I won't lock my children up in case they rape and I won't ditch my loving partner despite him being a potential rapist just because he has a cock. If I became pregnant again I would not abort a male baby even though he too will grow up to be a potential rapist. It has taken me 20 years to learn to love and trust without fear and I won't surrender that for mumsnetters who think all penises are the enemy.

Who in the hell would? Who's said any of that...

Sorry for what youve been through Thanks

littlemissangrypants · 15/10/2017 19:52

Paintingmary - all I have read in the last few days is that all men are complicit in the treatment and abuse of women. I have three men in my life in fact the whole world that I trust and now I feel like I should fear them too as they are just like the other penises. I want to be able to be safe with my boys and my partner without wondering. I really don't think I'm the right person for mumsnet. I am still stupid enough to think there are some decent people in the world. I guess being raped on a daily basis for 3 years aged 11 and then several times by different men after that has not been enough to make me hate all men. Good luck to the mothers of boys. I have a feeling they are going to need it.

peanut2017 · 15/10/2017 19:57

Restless you do know what misogyny means? It’s a hatred against women not men? I can manage to be married to a man, be a feminist and also a mother to a boy?

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 19:59

Sorry for what you’ve been through littlemiss Flowers but absolutely no one is asking you to hate men. I think all of us have men we love in our lives on this thread, but can still recognise how dangerous men can be compared to women

OCSockOrphanage · 15/10/2017 20:00

A long time male friend (entirely Platonic) whose divorce was horrid and who was unfairly slaughtered by his wife and was left with not much of anything, including confidence, admitted to using young prostitutes in my hearing range.

I was horrified by his admission, and thought a lot worse of him for that reason.

But later, I somewhat understood. He used sex workers, touting for business, to relieve his sexual tensions. He paid the going rate I presume, as a sad old man. I can't think there was any joy in it though.And, for the record, I am still friends with him. I am sure he has very few kind words for his ex wife. She left him without any dignity, after 20 years of providing for their family.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 20:00

littlemiss

Loads of us have boys, loads of us have make partners and loads of us dont hate men

But youre not listening so there is probably no point in this post

Ill post it anyway...waste of my typing otherwise

MillicentFawcett · 15/10/2017 20:03

electricliterature.com/what-i-dont-tell-my-students-about-the-husband-stitch-690899157394

I just read this - it seemed rather pertinent to this thread

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 20:03

But later, I somewhat understood. He used sex workers, touting for business, to relieve his sexual tensions. He paid the going rate I presume, as a sad old man. I can't think there was any joy in it though.And, for the record, I am still friends with him. I am sure he has very few kind words for his ex wife. She left him without any dignity, after 20 years of providing for their family.

Your friend sounds fucking gross and his wife had a lucky escape.

Why must he hire a ‘young’ vagina to relieve his sexual tensions? Makes my skin crawl.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 20:03

But kudos to you for implying it’s the wife’s fault that he used ‘young’ prostitutes 👍🏽

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 20:05

Also, what is this ‘provided for them’ bullshit? He worked and brought money into the home, does that mean she has to stay in unhappy marriage with some creepy (yes I’m using that word for someone who uses prostitutes frankly I think I’m being kind) entitled arse?