Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

[Narnia72]

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

• Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

• 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

restless

Why use a word when it doesnt mean what you want it to mean

Which is why I say, you have to hear what a man is like around other men, without knowing you are there, to really know what they are like

If you ever read the comments under news articles that appear on FB or online newspapers regarding rape/assault and such it makes extremely depressing reading, some of the comments from men make me feel truly despairing.

Which is why I say, you have to hear what a man is like around other men, without knowing you are there, to really know what they are like

Yes, I definitely agree with this. Which is why the 'I know a man who is not a misogynist' doesn't really mean anything, unless you have had the...pleasure...of seeing them in an all male situation.

And I guess the point of the thread too.

I have had a lot of this stuff from men and I have seen a lot less from women against men. We all know that and most men know that too, however defensive some men feel about it.

So we need to stamp it out. Also I chose single sex education for all my children which is quite useful. Secondly my grandmother had about 40 years a widow and her mother 25 and I have had (after 20 years married) 14 years and counting living without a live in partner and it is absolutely wonderful. I also work alone so have these days none of the usual office problems with men either. Women going their own way can have great lives as can men.

Most men have absolutely no idea what women have to endure.

Sigh... again, I only mentioned rape because you used it as an example. If you prefer to use larger numbers we could use the number of women perceived to be 'bitches'

YANBU

I have been sexually assaulted more times than I can count. Mostly by my ex but also by others. Even my own mother "wondered aloud" if I'd maybe done something to encourage this behaviour towards me

I have a son and a daughter and I'm determined to bring them both up right- to know that there is never an excuse to force yourself in any way on someone ever. I think it's important both sexes know this because enough women out blame the victim as much as any man does. It depresses me beyond words that it seems my own daughter has a high chance of one day being the victim of this sort of thing too.

The only light at the end of the tunnel is that I now have a relationship with a man I totally trust to never hurt me or any other woman ever. I have total faith in him. And believe me after attracting all manner of total creeps in the past I never thought I'd ever say that. if this one lets me down that's it I'm becoming a nun

He thing is being a bitch isn’t a violent crime, not one that can be measured. O mater your personal experience, the facts tell us that A LOT of men do rape and be violent towards women - why pointing that out offends people is beyond me

*The
And
*nor

And there’s the smugness. Misandry is a much lesser known term so I used this one for ease. You suggest misandry, you clearly know that’s what I meant yet you say my posts don’t make sense. So I’ll make it clearer, re-read them all replacing misogyny for misandry and give yourselves a slap on the back while you’re doing it. That’ll make you feel superior.

As a child in my home. At school. At my friend's wedding. At my first job. On my way to school. Several separate men demonstrating their sleaziness very directly. That doesn't include those who I've overheard make misogynistic or sleazy comments about women or those I've met who have treated women as objects. So, sadly, I think the op is nbu

Not all men, but enough men for women never to feel entirely safe or comfortable. All you 'not my Nigel' types, yes, you too. You either never go anywhere alone, particularly after dark or, if you do, you're constantly on edge, calculating the exits, hoping to see at least one other woman you could appeal to, edgy if a man is walking too close to you, or staring at you, because you know that, if you were assaulted by a man, people would be asking you what you did to cause it. What were you wearing, what had you been drinking, why were you out without your owner, were you polite to the man (in which case you led him on) were you hostile to him (you should have shown him more respect...

Plenty of men are not rapists. I have done all the Bad Things Bad Women Do, like going out alone, getting drunk, crashing out on a male friend's sofa, even sharing a bed with a male friend who I did not want to have sex with - without being raped.
But I've had my share of creeping, harassment, verbal abuse, annoyance etc.

And the thing is, a lot of 'nice' men simply Don't Get It. They wouldn't harass or assault a women themselves but, more importantly, they do not live their lives aware that if they got harassed or assaulted they would be blamed for it. And don't forget the relatively nice men, who would never actually attack a woman, but who still think it's OK to approach and annoy women who have given no indication whatsoever that they want to be approached; the men who can never resist pointing out that feminism has Gone Too Far and women are too angry and hostile; the men who think that a particular (powerful, talented, even heroic in some specific way) rapist and serial abuser of women not only shouldn't be demonized but is basically entitled to do whatever he wants to women, because 'women' are interchangeable commodities and don't matter.

After all that, though: two other points. That study about 1/3 of college men is badly flawed and now discredited, and lots of people produce and watch porn that's all about mutual pleasure, consent and sexual diversity. It's dumb and lazy to blame men's abusive, oppressive behaviour solely on porn when we have centuries of religion insisting that women are inferior to men and that men are entitled to own and control them.

And there’s the smugness. Misandry is a much lesser known term so I used this one for ease. You suggest misandry, you clearly know that’s what I meant yet you say my posts don’t make sense

Why would you use a word which is the exact opposite of what you actually mean?

I wasn’t being smug I wanted to clarify if you meant ‘man hating’ or ‘woman hating’. It’s pretty important to contextualise what you were saying.

But yes, I’m in the wrong for not figuring that out.

It’s like me saying “I hate sunshine” when I mean”I hate rain” and going on about how I love hot weather and hate showers. Then getting mad when someone points out my error.

Sadly I have to agree with the OP. (A bit.) But I don't think ALL men are like this. Some are though.

Misandry is a much lesser known term so I used this one for ease.

That actually made me laugh out loud.

As a side note, I wonder why misandry is so much lesser known. 🤔

YANBU

I despair 😩

If we stop thinking about male sexual assault and harassment of women as being about sex, and start thinking of it as an expression of power, it's much easier to see that it occurs on a continuum of male demonstrations (sexual, occupational, emotional and domestic) that women's role is, or ought to be, a subordinate one.

All unequal power relations are underpinned by violence or the constant threat of violence, they have to be.

I raised two boys and neither of them are 'creeps', thank you very much! Nor is their father.

Remember that the 'creeps' get the publicity. And the more famous/notorious the creep is, the louder it's blared in the media. The 'nice men' (and I still believe that's the majority of them) are just quietly living their lives, not drawing attention to themselves. I think if most of us look around ourselves and note the men in our 'orbit' we'll find that by and large they're decent chaps.

Well I’m glad you have something to laugh at. Revel in your mockery.

I know so many "creeps" and
None of their exploits were publicised. Most aren't

YANBU and the PP who said a large majority of men are misogynistic, I completely wholeheartedly agree.

You know, when I was 12 four boys from my school pinned me down and stuck their hands down my pants, it seemed to go on for a long time and they were all in my knickers at once grabbing and groping - their mums would have thought they were all great boys too.

Most of the men who assault, molest,, harass, rape, insult, wolf whistle etc. have a mum and very often a wife or girlfriend - and they would be horrified to think their partner/son was capable.

I disagree that the majority of men are nice chaps. I was out today with my children and was repeatedly getting the once over from men. I'm a human being out with my kids not a cow at an auction to be appraised. Fuck off and leave me alone. Funnily enough no one was doing that when I met up with dh and I was obviously not up for auction.

All you 'not my Nigel' types, yes, you too. You either never go anywhere alone, particularly after dark or, if you do, you're constantly on edge,

I'm female, I go out alone, walk in the dark too. I'm not constantly on edge either. That's not a healthy state to be in, to be terrified of rapists and attackers lurking in every corner.