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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are most men creeps under a thin veneer of civility?

666 replies

Narnia72 · 15/10/2017 13:35

Controversial title, but I have really been depressed about the variety of news this week, all about a preponderance of bad male behaviour that has been accepted and normalised. This is sort of a TAAT (lots of them). In the past few days I've read about

  • Harvey W and the resulting discussions that make it clear most, if not all workplaces, have a creepy male who may or may not cross lines, but certainly makes women feel very uncomfortable and that most people are aware of it, but for some reason it's never dealt with, and if women do speak out, usually it harms their career.

The way, if women behaved, they would be sacked and there would be outrage (rightly so), but managements across the world shrug their collective shoulders and say "that's just how he is". As though that makes it ok.

  • 2 separate cases where young women have been molested several times BY DIFFERENT MEN in one night. The awful one in Birmingham, where a young woman suffered 3 sexual assaults in an hour whilst walking home, the last one possibly by a group of men. Then another, older case, where a woman was being molested on a train and moved, only for the man she moved next to to do the same thing.

The resulting discussions, and the thread a while back that made it depressingly clear that for a majority of women, unwanted advances, gropes, and sexual innuendo are the norm, let alone sexual assault. That most men, regardless of how PC they are towards women (especially their own female friends and family) will subconsciously consider women to need their support and approbation - whether that's through positive reassurance (I'll protect you and walk you home - protect from whom? Men?) or through casual demeaning comments - giving women marks out of 10, commenting on their dress (see all the press comments about Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon photo op - if it were 2 men it would have been all about the political history they were making, as it was 2 women in skirts, it was all about their legs and the length of their skirts), commenting on what the new office worker would be like in bed, always bringing everything back to appearance and sex, as if that's the best and only thing women have to offer.

Then discussions on same sex v mixed education - the comments that the boys detract from the girls as they dominate lessons with silly behaviour, meaning the girls get less time and attention, the constant comments about attractiveness or not of the girls (I know this happens to boys too, but not to the same extent - how many teenage girls go "whoah, look at the package on that"), again, the casual sex offences - undoing bra straps, brushing genitals against girls' bodies, looking up their skirts.

Any women that speak up are deemed men haters, angry feminists, lesbians etc and their careers are harmed.

I am not a man hater, I am happily married, and have a lovely dad and a young son (as well as 2 daughters). Yet I hear it around me all the time, the casual comments that diminish females (oh he's so clever, she's so pretty), the implication that women need protecting from men (my husband always walks our female babysitter home, which I'm happy about but think why should it be necessary - it's never occurred to us to offer to walk our male babysitter - same age - home ever)

America has appointed a known sexual predator as a president - how was he even allowed to stand for public office with his track record (regardless of his totally inability to be a president)

There was that study done in 2015 that showed 1/3 of college professionals would rape if they could get away with it. College Men Commit Rape

Discussions with male colleagues in the pub where they're clearly angry that they should consider if the drunk woman they want to shag is sober enough to consent.

All the women across all walks of life, high profile or not, for whom casual and everyday sexist behaviour is an unchallengeable reality.

I've just become really sad and angry about the world I'm bringing my daughters up in, and wonder what we can do, men and women, to stop this intrinsic indoctrination that it's ok for males to behave like this, wherever on the scale they fall, and for females just to accept it.

How can we draw a firm line that says "no, whoever you are, however powerful, this is not ok".

How can we get the men who are appalled by this behaviour to call their colleagues out on it, not to wait to be the protector of little women, but to say - "no, when George, the new office manager, started last week you didn't feel the need to comment on how handsome he was or speculate on the size of his cock, so why, when Jane, the new head of PR, started yesterday did you comment on her tits and how you would't mind giving her one".

Why don't the decent men in society stick their heads above the parapet and say "NO. It's not ok. Don't do it".

Not to protect the women. But because they are appalled. And don't want it to happen any more.

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 15/10/2017 18:23

Horny, I used it as an example because you mentioned it. I think it's hypocritical to make generalisations about men when you would argue against generalisations about women. Regardless of how many people are involved.

OCSockOrphanage · 15/10/2017 18:23

I do and don't see all of what you are all saying. I was sexually assaulted/raped at university by someone I knew quite well when I was offered a safe dry place to sleep after a party, rather than walking three miles home alone in the rain. It didn't disrupt my life.

Now I am the mother of one son. He is quite shy and tentative around girls, even girls he knows well, that he doesn't dare ask one out. The girl he currently likes or did like (has f*cked five boys in as many weeks, and is clever and outgoing queen bee type) after suggesting that they should go out ice skating (hardly a come here for a shag on his part) is now being very defensive on FaceBook. I think she perhaps feels embarrassed but she is making him feel inadequate.

I can't answer any of this. He is very handsome, naturally (I'm his mum, but trust me on this, he is really good looking, kind and with nice manners) why is this lass being so unkind?

bumbleymummy · 15/10/2017 18:25

IfYouSeeRita, the OP said most men are creeps and I disagree.

bumbleymummy · 15/10/2017 18:27

I wonder how many men report sexual assault by women... or does the societal expectation of being a 'lad' and the idea that you should appreciate any female attention - even if it's unwanted- put them off.

MissAlabamaWhitman · 15/10/2017 18:27

Well that's more than a bit myopic really isn't it Bumb?

Anyone can appreciate the fact that generalisations have more validity, the greater the number of any given population that they apply to.
That's just logic I'm afraid.

MissAlabamaWhitman · 15/10/2017 18:28

If I were to hazard a guess I'd say that men are the main perpetrators of sexual violence against men.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 18:29

I’m not just talking about the misogyny on this thread though. It’s across the whole of MN. I sometimes wonder what the mothers of boys feel after reading the stuff on here. It must be awful for them.

I’ve got a feeling you mean misandry? I have a boy and reading these threads makes me angry that he’s part of a class of people who do so much damage to women. Then I think about how I can do damage limitation when raising him and hope that he’s one of the good ones. I am very aware that there’s a fair chance he may not be. I certainly don’t get uppity about other women’s experiences just because I have a son. That would be stupid. And I will be teaching him specifically to respect girls and women, because god knows the rest of the world will be teaching him the opposite.

I don’t worry about this with my DD, because females as a class are not dangerous to males

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 15/10/2017 18:29

They are MissAlabama.

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 18:29

Horny, I used it as an example because you mentioned it. I think it's hypocritical to make generalisations about men when you would argue against generalisations about women. Regardless of how many people are involved.

Do you not see the difference when MUCH higher numbers are involved?

I see you have now moved onto 'how many women sexually assault'. I get why you are doing this now.

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 18:31

If I were to hazard a guess I'd say that men are the main perpetrators of sexual violence against men.

Yeah I would say this too tbh. Especially given 9000 males are raped a year. And to be convicted of rape means you are in possession of a penis, so all of these males are raped by males.

Anatidae · 15/10/2017 18:32

went on the dating scene. There was only one man out of 10 that I would have carried on having a relationship with.

You’ve just reminded me of an few experiences I had after I split from my ex (nice bloke, we’d just drifted.)

I went on a couple of those speed dating things with a friend. What struck me was that all the women were nice, attractive, mix of professions but all decent iyswim - all sensible women who you’d be happy to have a conversation with.

There was one man who was ok. And he turned out to be the friend of the owner of the bar roped in to make numbers up.

Every other bloke just gave off an air of hating women. You’d start with ‘hi I’m ana, I do x for a living and I’m into z - you?’ And within two minutes you’d be given a spiel about how much they hated their ex wife, how women were all..(insert misogynistic shit here) or you’d be creeped out.

It really shook me, because my friends (all decent people I’d met doing my PhD/hiking/climbing) were universally not like that. It was a huge eye opening peek into the real world of just how much many men hate women. A very unpleasant experience

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 18:33

I also have a son, and a brother, and a husband, and a father who I love very much.

Doesn't mean I am blind to the damage males as a group do to females though. And I am fairly often pulling my husband up on misogynistic language even though he is as close to a 'good guy' as possible. He still believed rape myths until (specifically, that many women lie about rape) yesterday FFS.

OCSockOrphanage · 15/10/2017 18:35

In my youth, I might have come on to a guy I fancied, but I probably couldn't have forced my attentions on him if he resisted. Surely that's where the line is?

If a person subjects another person to sexual activity that is not welcome, it is assault? Better definition? Happy to have one.

TheStoic · 15/10/2017 18:36

I’m not just talking about the misogyny on this thread though. It’s across the whole of MN. I sometimes wonder what the mothers of boys feel after reading the stuff on here. It must be awful for them.

I don’t understand this. Do you know what ‘misogyny’ means?

Paddington68 · 15/10/2017 18:38

No

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 18:40

Men lie about rape all the time

Masses of them logically

But yep...keep harping on about the small about of women that lie

MillicentFawcett · 15/10/2017 18:40

I have a son who I think is awesome in every way. He thinks porn is sick and wrong and he came to feminism in London with me yesterday.

I'm trying to bring him up to understand that if he's not part of the solution - calling his friends out on sexism and objectifying girls - then he's part of the problem. As so many 'nice' blokes are.

OCSockOrphanage · 15/10/2017 18:42

At the moment, my DS is a very tender hearted 18 yo virgin who would love a girlfried to cherish. I cannot see him as an abuser, because he wouldn't/couldn't hurt a spider if it could be put out of the window.

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 18:42

Men lie about rape all the time

Well indeed. Even if we are only going on convictions, I would hazard a guess that every one of the 3600 convicted said they did not rape. So again we have 22 female liars, v 3600 male ones. But yeah, the females are the focus and apparently the epidemic...

Elendon · 15/10/2017 18:42

BTW my ex would to all intents and purposes be seen as a decent man. Not by all mind, all of my friends for example, even friends we shared socially - I was the one who kept the contact there.

His work colleagues however, all, ALL, turned a blind eye. Very telling.

LongWavyHair · 15/10/2017 18:42

All these badly behaved men have mums who think the sun shines out of their arses.

Don't we all think that about our children? Confused Obviously put in nicer way.
As it is right now, my son is 6 so yes I do think the absolute world of him. I'll continue to think the world of him even when he's a tall 16 year old lad and I want him to always know that he can turn to his mum for support, but that doesn't mean I'm giving him the green light to be a thug/bully/rapist etc... I would not stand for that.
But yeah, how wrong of me for thinking he's the best.

RestlessTraveller · 15/10/2017 18:49

I don’t understand this. Do you know what ‘misogyny’ means?

The thing is I think you do understand. I think you’re fucking desperate to point out the definition of misogyny is about hatred of women. I hate to spoil your party but I know this. I’m using it because there is no appropriate word of the opposite situation. Which says a lot.

paranoidpammywhammy2 · 15/10/2017 18:50

I overheard a friend's husband at the pub where he was talking with his mates. I don't really know him that well but I was thinking about whether I should go over to say hi. I didn't. He was talking about the waitress and what he'd like to do to her. He was discussing what a slut she was and whether she'd take it up the arse. She was probably only just 18 - younger than his daughters. I'm sure she overheard some of what they were saying as I was further away.

Maybe he was drunk, maybe it was just lads talk. It was horrible to hear. I've always heard good things about my friends husband. He's responsible, caring, well-respected, works very hard and treats my friend and his daughters really well. He's a good husband and father.

I don't know what to think.

brasty · 15/10/2017 18:51

That is disgusting

HornyTortoise · 15/10/2017 18:51

I’m using it because there is no appropriate word of the opposite situation. Which says a lot.

There is? Misandry/misandrist

Your posts make not much sense when you say misogyny instead