If a new referendum on Brexit was announced..

[bbcessex]

Would you be up in arms about that?
Discussing last night.. I think given the margins in the last vote and the (being charitable) confusion and uncertainty over the Brexit plans, a new referendum would generally be accepted.

DH (remainer) thinks a re-vote is not constitutional & would cause uproar (amongst all).

Who is unreasonable ?

Just for that I'll ignore you

A useful diversionary tactic as you have no answers.

But this is people's lives, livelihood & peace that you're being so sanguine about. It was very hard won peace. Forgive me if I'm not convinced by 'oh it will be fine' handwave. It needs very careful handling and not many brexiteers really have the slightest clue of what's at stake.

I think Leavers hope that Ireland will leave the EU too, thus giving more credibility to their own vote

What basis do you have for that astonishing claim?

I think Leavers hope that Ireland will leave the EU too, thus giving more credibility to their own vote

Given that 88% of the Irish want Ireland to remain in the EU from latest polling, that was very naive of them.

work benefits. They all work hard. Not many of them have families over here and hardly any of them even use the NHS. They all like to travel back to their home countries for medical treatment. Hardly any of them even have a GP

Do you realise one of the reasons it was claimed the a and e was at breaking point was due to eastern European workers with very poor English, a suspicion of being documented in a proper surgery...in case of need they would simply go to a and e where they are treated with no details taken or money. To say they don't have a gp makes me shudder, as their employer maybe you need to help with basic stuff like that? leaflets or notices put up, they are not here to integrate ( the people who work in your factory) they are here in a mission to make money to send home. So how would they know this stuff? Your the one employing loads of people why don't you help.

And I wonder if you have ever visited the so called HMO where they live? Talk to the neighbours? I say so called HMOs as mostly they are not officially classified as such they are illegal housing with rank poor conditions inside - eg several mattress on floor to a room, no living space.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brent-council-finds-35-men-living-in-three-bedroom-house-owned-by-sunil-hathi-with-brother-neil-and-mother-meenaxi-dzfv0c3b5

This ^^ is up and down the country.
"Council leaders condemned it as a 'shocking' and 'shameful' example of a 'rogue landlord' exploiting needy people" ...only alerted by fed up neighbours!

I just cant see who benefits from shipping over cheap vulnerable labour to work in a factory. I really cant. These people dont know what their rights are, they are used to very low human rights at home, they have no knowledge of working standards, hours, pay, doctors, etc etc. They live in awful conditions ^^ it causes problems for neigbours living next to houses with vast amounts of men in them, nothing is regulated...

The shifting of humans like chattels across a border less EU.

Littlebird we'll have to agree to differ and reconvene many years post 2019 and see what happens in reality.

Your statement that "We have got our confidence back as a country" seems rather at odds to your previous descriptions of the UK as a country creaking under inadequate health care, housing and work opportunities.

You are accusing me of having a backward view of the UK, but you seem to be harping back to when England was a colonial power in terms of trade!

London may be a financial hub (at the moment) but your point about "You come to London to cut your teeth in any major industry" and about Germany being the only good places to gain business experience in the EU is absolute nonsense. There are opportunities in a myriad of countries (both popular and less popular) in the EU both for training, education and business.

Just off the top of my head eg:

• fashion, food, tourism - Italy,
• tourism and agriculture - Spain,
• wind power in Denmark and Sweden,
• pharmaceuticals in France and Belgium,
• high value cosmetics and aerospace technology - France, Italy Spain, - transportation and logistics - most continental EU states.

And by the way, lots and lots of UK farmers have investigated in Romanian and Spanish agriculture. A lot of the food grown in Spain that is available to us in British supermarkets, is grown on Spanish farms owned by British farmers.

My point is simply that I would prefer future generations in the UK to be able to take advantage of these opportunities too. It will still be possible for them to do so to a limited extent, but it will be a lot more difficult and costly than it is now.

You seem to be intent on attributing opinions to me that I haven't even mentioned (gap years for example). Fwiw, most EU citizens struggle by the age of 30 to afford a home in the country of their birth - this is not unique to UK. The UK housing market is entirely different to that of the rest of continental Europe, because not as many people rent and it is far more volatile market altogether. House prices only tend to rise slowly and incrementally over here, but we avoid the damaging booms and busts.

From the point of view of the EU countries, it is the UK who has behaved less than honorably. We have obtained opt-outs and refunds and special exceptions galore and yet we still turned our backs on our EU partners. This current Brexit mess is entirely of our own creation and yet we expect the other 27 EU member states to think "creatively" and bail us out of it!

not many brexiteers really have the slightest clue of what's at stake

This, is fucking annoying and the main reason the remain camp have been branded a bunch of whinging, moaning, groaning sore losers. Hence the term "remaoaners"

Implying, or in your case stating that anyone who disagrees with you only does so because they don't really know what they're talking about is insulting. Looking down your nose at dissenters does not help your case.

A United Ireland is a whole other can of worms and for me, raises far more questions than it gives answers.

Firstly, does the Republic of Ireland really want it? Will its people ratify it? Personally, I think this is far from a given.

Secondly, it's going to cost the UK a whole lot of money in the short term. The Republic would have to be financially supported to a significant degree to take Northern Ireland on.

Then there's the Unionist contingent and their reaction. Though there would be beautiful irony in the fact that the DUP's brexit position inadvertently lead to the realization of their worst nightmare.

Implying, or in your case stating that anyone who disagrees with you only does so because they don't really know what they're talking about is insulting. Looking down your nose at dissenters does not help your case.

Well, you tell me how the border issue should be solved then. Presuming you voted for it.

Its been said before that if Remain had won the vote, Nigel Farage said as much when he thought that remainers had won.
the leavers would have been banging on about another referendum and so on - they would not have given up and the rift in the government would still be there - as it is now. DC's gamble did not resolve anything at all and just made everything much worse. I can see this rumbling on and on forever more.
Remainers should not give up because the leavers wouldn't have done if it had gone the other way. Another referendum might be the only way forwards - lets have a vote on the final deal ( if they ever get one) then see how people feel then. Lets have proper debates , no lying and more facts. I can but hope. It might be the only way.

"Implying, or in your case stating that anyone who disagrees with you only does so because they don't really know what they're talking about is insulting."

I agree. The problem is that lots of leavers really don't seem to know what they are talking about. On this thread there has been plenty of "sovereignty" "get our country back" "I'm confident a solution will be found" type sentiments. Not much substance.

Its been said before that if Remain had won the vote, Nigel Farage said as much when he thought that remainers had won
the leavers would have been banging on about another referendum and so on

That's upper supposition.

It's obvious the leavers care more about democracy than remainers and I suggest to you that if remain had won there would have been no more said about it.

"That's upper supposition."

No it isn't. He said it!

What basis do you have for that astonishing claim?

No basis other than anecdote, but it's something that I have seen some Leavers tout as a solution.

No it isn't. He said it

He said it, that doesn't mean he would have called for another Ref, let alone get anyone to support it.

Before the Referendum this country used to respect democracy, now it doesn't.

The problem is that lots of leavers really don't seem to know what they are talking about.

I didn't vote leave, but that statement cuts both ways.

I didn't vote leave, but that statement cuts both ways

True, but remainers didn't vote to radically change the status quo without understanding the full implications of that vote.

He said it, that doesn't mean he would have called for another Ref,

Uh, what? You honestly think that if the referendum had gone 52/48 the other way, that Farage would not have called for another? Even though he said that that exact result would mean he would fight for another referendum?

Before the Referendum this country used to respect democracy, now it doesn't.
Tell me how a referendum on the terms of the deal would be undemocratic?

Nigel Farage most definitely said that it would be unfinished business if the vote had been 52:48 in favour of Remain. He used also to extol Norway as an example of a country which was doing well. I suspect he didn't realise that they had signed up to Freedom of Movement and Schengen.

True, but remainers didn't vote to radically change the status quo without understanding the full implications of that vote

How do you know leavers voted without understanding the full implications? Sure, you can find some leave voters that don't know why they wanted to leave, and I can find some remain voters that don't know why they want(ed) to remain. Or are you suggesting that ALL remain voters are clued up and know what they're talking about and none of the leave voters do/did?

But rub how could leavers possibly have known the full implications given that no actual plan had been made and we don't even know the full implications now

RubMyRhubarb - exactly

How do you know leavers voted without understanding the full implications?

I couldn't point to a single person (regardless of how they voted) that understands the full implications of a leave vote NOW, let alone last June.

Because to do so would involve understanding the following ...

Do we stay in the single market?

If so, what leverage do we have over immigration?
If not, what trade deals can we negotiate with EU/rest of the world?
How long will it take us to put those in place?
What will happen to EU nationals currently in the country?
How do we solve the NI border issue?

And that's just off the top of my head. The answers to these questions are not known. They were never clarified before the vote. We're not much closer to clarifying them now.

Remain voters didn't choose to open this particular can of worms. They may or may not have been better informed than leave voters, but they didn't voluntarily open the country up to this level of uncertainty.

hatty

Fair point. However, what we voted for was to leave or remain, we all (both sides) knew there'd be negotiations and deal discussions lasting not less than twelve thousand years

Leave voters knew this, remain voters knew that if they lost then there would be deal negotiations.

The point I was making is that so many remainers are trotting out this bullshit implying (or in many cases - saying) that leavers are just too stupid to realise what they've voted for, we're all doomed because of those uneducated peasants etc etc and it's fucking annoying.

As we are still in the position of no one knowing what it will look like if we come out it would be ridiculous to ask the question of the British public again. Even the politicians managing it don’t know what the end game is.

I was having some building work done at the time of the vote, one of the 18 year old labourers voted to leave, when asked why he voted to leave his exact words were “ I dunno, I thought everyone was voting to leave “.

No one understood it but still we asked every single adult “look weve no idea of the implications of this but do you think we should leave EUROPE” .

One of the stupidest moves in political history. It’s like asking me “ hey do you think we should build another oil rig in the North Sea.we can’t tell you any more info on it, the pros or cons, but whatever you decide blunt is what we shall do” . Still pisses me off. So no, asking the public again would be daft, we are no further forward.

LaurieMarlow - You could also say the same thing about the remain vote. Remainers do not know how the EU is going to change and evolve in the future and what implications it would have for the UK. If the remain vote had won things were not going to stay exactly the same.