If a new referendum on Brexit was announced..

[bbcessex]

Would you be up in arms about that?
Discussing last night.. I think given the margins in the last vote and the (being charitable) confusion and uncertainty over the Brexit plans, a new referendum would generally be accepted.

DH (remainer) thinks a re-vote is not constitutional & would cause uproar (amongst all).

Who is unreasonable ?

That's true thiscan't but in the immediate future leaving the EU quite clearly would upset the status quo in a more profound way than staying in it and seeing what happens.

Also, a future changing EU would have the UK as a member, with influence in the direction of that change. Also a remain vote isn't the same as a 'remain forever' vote.

Farage is not and was not an MP and his ideas on what should happen depending on the vote were of no more relevance than Bob Geldof's. (remember that embarrassing shrieking match on the Thames?)

Farage had and has no power to determine what was done with the result.

as for the anecdotes: yes, in an ideal world there would be a test of critical reasoning skills before being given a ballot paper. We don't do that. As some on this thread point out - unfashionable as the concept is on MN, voting remain did NOT mean all would be the same nor did it mean all would be well. It had been repeatedly demonstrated that the EU was not going to change because the UK wanted change.

Trouble is that voting leave also guarantees neither of those things.

rock and a hard place.

Rub I can see that and as a remainer myself I'm far more open minded than I was about the motivations for leaving and the leave vote. I'm sad about the element who just voted to rebel against the government and didn't think leave would happen, but who knows how large a proportion that was.
I think the whole referendum was a mistake given how binary and unclear it was and there ought to have been a series of referendums and far more clarity about the outcome and plan. But since there wasn't and we seem stuck with out I'm now more in the 'get on with it and see what happens' camp and don't think a second referendum is the answer now.

Recent developments in Germany and Spain for example beg the question of where Europe is heading and why there is so much desire for separation recently (Brexit, Scotland, Catalonia, German elections etc) and what needs to be done.

sandy
That's really rather melodramatic. The EU has had opt ins and opt outs etc, negotiated with it, specific for every member-state. Look at theones France and Italy got!

You say we've behaved so appallingly, merely for exercising our basic right to withdraw from their approaching Euro superstate? When EU countries are behaving in a highly unfriendly and threatening manner towards us (allowing their Euro-elites to try to "make an example of us" in order to preserve their project from future countries following our lead, trying to impose charges on us for doing what the UK electorate demands.

The EU is run by France and Germany for the benefit of France agriculturally and Germany industrially . Both break the rules when it suits them and castigates the UK if it appears to be about to miss any of their arbitrary targets.

All member states have negotiated special deals etc and we're turning our backs on an undemocratic EU project, not Europe itself. Personally I believe the EU's collapse is inevitable now. It could have happened via Le Pen in France, it didn;t. But now, if it's not Italian banks then it'll be Greece, (Germans refusing to the eternal bail out of) if not Greece then Turkish neo-imperialist blackmail. The only question as far as I am concerned is when it will collapse - before our final exit or after...?

I agree Laurie that in the immediate future leaving disrupts the UK much more than remaining. However, I'm not really sure that we ever had/have that much influence within the EU. I don't ever feel that we can truly shape, amend, have a voice within the EU.

I also do not fully understand how we have got to this point. As far as I was aware my parents voted to be in a common market and that was all. How has the EU evolved to this?

Crackednips - I agree. I do think, at some, point the EU will collapse. I think it is a long way off but the fact that the EU want to control more and more and it is becoming this superstate is going to turn more people against it.

Nigel Farage could have demanded as many referendums as he wanted, he wouldn't have changed the result of a referendum any more than Nick Clegg has been able to do.

However, I'm not really sure that we ever had/have that much influence within the EU. I don't ever feel that we can truly shape, amend, have a voice within the EU.

In what way?

For instance with the European Council and the Council of the European Union, the UK is fully represented. We have never been excluded.

The Parliament? We have our number of democratically elected members. They have never been denied a vote.

The Commission? The UK has its commissioner.

How have we been denied a voice?

makeourfuture - I totally agree we are always represented correctly. I just don't feel that our voice, opinions etc are heard or taken on board. I very much get the opinion that it is the German/French show and that we have very little say in shaping policies. Obviously, we won't now but before the referendum.

How have we been denied a voice

Denied? No. But there's little point in having a voice if nobody hears it.

Makeourfuture

Just a quick question if I may. If the EU did something we didn't like, like, I don't know, like inviting in 1 million unskilled migrants - How would we show our displeasure at this in a democratic form. I mean, we couldn't show our displeasure by voting them out could we?

I very much get the opinion that it is the German/French show and that we have very little say in shaping policies

But this is just your perception. Where is the evidence to suggest this is the case?

Where is the evidence to suggest this is the case

Did Germany ask anyone else before opening the doors to Europe last year? They just did it and caused massive divisions amoungst people.

I mean 2015, not last year.

Thiscantreallybehappening Indeed and if it hadn't morphed in to its current manifestation, Brexit wouldn't even be an issue.

And yes, the end of the EU will, if it happens at all, most likely be long after our departure.

Your mentioning Mr Clegg reminded me.. The question of a second referendum was put to the country at the last election - it was the LibDem position.

I'd be going batshit if another election was called which more likely.

I have been living in England since 1989 and I've voted in three referendums. Hardly onerous.

Leaving the EU is a major decision the effects of which are now known.

Have another one. People are allowed to change their mind.

Have another one

How many should we have if the next one was a leave too?

Did Germany ask anyone else before opening the doors to Europe last year?

What precisely are you talking about?

When Germany opened the door to approximately 1 million migrants, of which most were young men, that's what I'm talking about.

makeourfuture I can't quite believe you are being serious here?

For instance with the European Council and the Council of the European Union, the UK is fully represented

We do not vote for the pan-EUropean groupings in the EU Parliament and have no representation in the dominant grouping. The Council Of Ministers are not selected from the EU Parliament and often the Commissioners are not either and neither are elected by the European demos whereas Ministers in the UK Govt largely are.

The Parliament? We have our number of democratically elected members. They have never been denied a vote

In the EU the only people with real power are the 28 individuals in the council - generally globalists like Cameron, Osborne , Blair . As well as the unelected Commission. The elected parliamentarians can't even demand legislation even if they had a majority.

There is no equivalent in terms of breadth and depth of power within our gov' to compare with the appointed EU Commission which unlike our Civil Service makes its own political appointments that are then ratified by the democratic representation.

The European demos is so large it puts at question the actual value of a vote. The simple scale of the EU undermines the very notion of democracy.

opened the door to approximately 1 million migrants, of which most were young men, that's what I'm talking about.

Telling them they were welcome to remain in Germany

That's a German decision, not an EU one

@Cracked

I cry when I read posts like yours.

No I would not be up in arms. I don’t want the UK destroyed for my children because people are racists. And I do think that is why a lot of people voted leave.

That's a German decision, not an EU one

One that affected the entire continent, or didn't you watch the news in 2015?

Just to add, I'm firmly of the belief that if Merkel had not of opened Germany's doors then Brexit would not of happened.

But they did and it did.