If a new referendum on Brexit was announced..

[bbcessex]

Would you be up in arms about that?
Discussing last night.. I think given the margins in the last vote and the (being charitable) confusion and uncertainty over the Brexit plans, a new referendum would generally be accepted.

DH (remainer) thinks a re-vote is not constitutional & would cause uproar (amongst all).

Who is unreasonable ?

Somerville

I have lived in NI, Antrim to be precise. I'm fully aware of the political situation in NI.

About half the population of the north of Ireland, and a significant minority of Scots don't recognise or support the union

That may be the case but when it comes to political decisions made by the government your ability to recognise it or not is irrelevant.

A peaceful and prosperous union is impossible amidst this climate

Of course it is. What discrimination are your people experiencing currently?

M4dad

If you're really fully aware of the political situation in the north of Ireland then you know how inflammatory you are being in prounouncing the opinions of my community an irrelevance in this context.
If you don't understand that then you don't know half as much about it as you think you do.

You are either being goady, or are clueless. Either way it is pointless for me to discuss this with you any more.

However I hope it is illuminating, for any posters who happen not to know much about the Good Friday Agreement or the wider political situation on the island of Ireland, to see the responses by leavers to these very serious issues.

The clearer it becomes that there is no political solution, the more it is pronounced an irrelevance. It smells of desperation.

sandy

I hardly feel that the business world of tomorrow will suffer dreadfully simply because students won't be spending extended time in the EU (which apart from Germany and one or two others are hardly the cutting edge of industry in any field) You come to London to cut your teeth in any major industry.

You are clearly way off the mark because the students of today have no chance of affording such a luxury of travelling around the EU anyway!

You seem incredibly removed from the realities and seem to have some 1990s version of the UK. Students can't afford gap years anymore.

Students are struggling even by the age of 30 to afford a home in the country of their birth and are usually forced to remain at home. Even the cost of the rent has exploded. So I think they would laugh at your suggestion that somehow they are now deprived of time spent overseas, they would probably settle for a doctors appointment and a chance of a house by the time they are 40.

Look, you clearly have your interests by trying to keep us all in the EU. I have to tell you that record numbers of people even those that voted to remain now no longer what to stay in the EU. The EU have behaved disgracefully, they have done themselves no favours whatsoever. Much of the public here do not hold a positive view of the EU I can tell you.

The vote was to leave. We will be leaving. I hope it works out for you, where you are now and you enjoy your life.
The UK will be defining a new focus beyond Brett. We have got our confidence back as a country, and you can cut us down as much as you like and whatever you feel are the rights and wrongs of the situation, you are at some stage going to have to accept the outcome and the result and make arrangements accordingly.

Brett - brexit

About half the population of the north of Ireland don't recognise or support the union

Whether they recognise the union or not. The people of NI, (a province) are financially dependant on the Crown, not the other way around.

If you're really fully aware of the political situation in the north of Ireland then you know how inflammatory you are being in prounouncing the opinions of my community an irrelevance in this context.

In the context of voting in the EU Ref, whether you believe in the union or not was irrelevant though.

The vote was nothing at all to do with what your opinion re the union was; it had no relevance whether you recognise the union/Westminster govt or not.

It was whether or not you wanted the U.K. to remain in the EU or not - that’s all.

somerville

I understand your sensitivities and of course everything must be done to accommodate NI and the rest of Ireland. I have some confidence that that a solution will be found, there is very little appetite for risking the peace agreement.

Many ideas are being tested and explored, and most people understand the importance of ensuring that this particularly element of brexit is vitally important to prosperity and peace.

Forgot to add --www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_1990_2015NIp_17c1li111mcn_F0t

I have some confidence that that a solution will be found

I'm interested in where that confidence is coming from. Have you seen a solution that you think is workable? If so, please share.

sandy

You might be surprised to know I was a remainer right up the last moment. I voted for my children not for me. I wanted them to grow up in a true democracy.

The lack of decorum and respect from the EU since the vote has made me feel that it was definitely the right decision.

How do leave voters feel the negotiations are going so far?

laurie

Yes many ideas including technology to recognise cars as they pass the borders etc so there is no hard borders as such.

In terms of trade I believe the Irish and UK government will come to their own agreements. It is entirely also possible that Ireland will leave the EU as well, given the recent case of Apple and the tax issues they may find it is more viable to also leave.

The negotiations are going as expected. They will be hard and difficult but anything worth fighting for usually is.

Laurie

I believe we can take confidence in the fact that it's very much in both sides interests that a workable solution is found.

Ireland and Britain do over one billion euro worth of trade every week and Ireland is Britain's fifth biggest trading partner.

Also considering for Ireland 25% + of its goods are imports are from the UK. Placing tariffs on these goods will not benefit the Irish consumer. So it'll happen I've no doubt. There's too much at stake for both sides if it doesn't.

People who weren't convinced by warnings of the worst consequences of crashing out last time probably won't be this time either

I'm personally ambivalent about the possibility of another referendum. If there were to be another, I'd vote REMAIN again in capital letters, and be out there campaigning. But I'm not one of those demanding another vote.

Ultimately, if as some Leavers (see upthread) genuinely believe that literally any price is worth paying for Brexit, then nothing is going to sway the vote. I believe anybody who is still paying attention (i.e. still gives a shit about Brexit either way) is probably absolutely entrenched in their position.

including technology to recognise cars as they pass the borders etc so there is no hard borders as such.

I have heard the DUP talk about this too. Yet, the both the Republic of Ireland and the nationalist communities of Northern Ireland have already dismissed this idea as unworkable and something they will not back.

Word to the wise, the Republic of Ireland needs to sign up to this solution, otherwise they have nothing to work with. The Republic don't want any change, because there is literally nothing in it for them. The UK needs to put considerable time and resource into understanding what would work for the Republic and convincing them to sign up. They haven't shown any inclination to do this.

Mothertruck3r - Just out of interest, how many of your EU workers claim in-work benefits that you know of and is the tax and NI on their salary likely to be more than the total they get from in-work benefits, their cost to the NHS, their costs to state pension provision, cost to educate their children, cost on social services, pressure on housing etc?

Perhaps the reason you can't get any UK citizens to do the job is because they are not prepared to live in awful conditions in HMOs, cannot leave the country in a few years time with the money they have made in the UK and buy a very cheap house in their home country, aren't entitled to top up benefits etc.

In answer to your questions, I don't think hardly any of them claim any in work benefits. They all work hard. Not many of them have families over here and hardly any of them even use the NHS. They all like to travel back to their home countries for medical treatment. Hardly any of them even have a GP.

I also think that the living wage has had an impact. I can be paid living wage to work in a shop, a care home, with children, in a restaurant, as a cleaner, as an administrator, in a call centre etc etc. To be fair, working in a food factory is probably not going to be the first, second, or third choice for many.

The fundamental long term issue is however that we need people to produce food. If we pay people more to produce it, then we will pay more for it.

I believe we can take confidence in the fact that it's very much in both sides interests that a workable solution is found. Ireland and Britain do over one billion euro worth of trade every week and Ireland is Britain's fifth biggest trading partner.Also considering for Ireland 25% + of its goods are imports are from the UK. Placing tariffs on these goods will not benefit the Irish consumer. So it'll happen I've no doubt. There's too much at stake for both sides if it doesn't.

Pardon my brusqueness, but I'm looking for proposed solutions not pretty, empty words.

The Northern Irish peace is fragile. The border is a very sensitive and loaded issue. Enough platitudes thank you, get your thinking cap on and propose something practical.

Do you need to be quite so rude Laurie?

Just for that I'll ignore you...

there is very little appetite for risking the peace agreement.
There may not be, but it would be so easily to risk it by default, by giving it far too little attention. The GFA took a lot of work by a good many people.

Yes many ideas including technology to recognise cars as they pass the borders etc so there is no hard borders as such. In terms of trade I believe the Irish and UK government will come to their own agreements. It is entirely also possible that Ireland will leave the EU as well, given the recent case of Apple and the tax issues they may find it is more viable to also leave.

God, if I didn't read these 'ideas' so often I would find the naivety to be humorous.

I don't want to derail this thread into Irish issues any further, because clearly it's about so much more than just that.

But my belief is that writing off the fact that Scotland and NI voted to remain is going to end up with leavers gaining the freedom they want from the EU, only to use their Union.

lose their union.

Mia1415 Wed 11-Oct-17 11:54:03

^^ who on earth did you employ before workers rights were lifted?

I think Leavers hope that Ireland will leave the EU too, thus giving more credibility to their own vote. I think, like Somerville, that it's more likely we will see a United Ireland, especially since the demographics are shifting.