If a new referendum on Brexit was announced..

[bbcessex]

Would you be up in arms about that?
Discussing last night.. I think given the margins in the last vote and the (being charitable) confusion and uncertainty over the Brexit plans, a new referendum would generally be accepted.

DH (remainer) thinks a re-vote is not constitutional & would cause uproar (amongst all).

Who is unreasonable ?

Mia then the government needs to look harder at why people are preferring to claim benefits than take a job in your sector, it’s difficult when you see people suffering with the benefit cuts, yet people must still be better off not working else by rights they should be flocking to your job interviews!

No revote. But lessons must be learned about marginal results in binary question referendums.

It seems ludicrous to me to invoke constitutional mayhem because just over half of the voting population wants it.

Scotland, take note.

sandy

Well lets all stay in the EU even though it is wrecking havoc in our country just so your little Jemima does not need to pay a tax or fill in a visa to work in the EU in her gap year.

What a great reason for staying why didn't I think of that?

I don't believe we should have a new referendum. However I do think parliament should have the ultimate decision on whatever deal is struck. And I firmly believe there should be no whip on that vote - the MP's should vote with what they ACTUALLY believe is best for the country economically based on the terms of the deal that has been agreed, not with party lines.

dearlittleflo

My main concern is the end of tariff-free trade and the imposition of non-tariff barriers

The UK could alter tax rates to help this. There's no EU trade deal with China and their goods currently have tariffs applied. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of Chinese made goods in our shops though! Also Non-tariff barriers are not our biggest barrier because we already meet EU reg's. We do not have the problems that beset CETA (which is unravelling) or TTIP

loss of research funding to UK (and brain drain), reduced incentives for immigrants to come/stay, meaning huge parts of our workforce will be depleted (esp the NHS),

We coped before MUI with selective, controlled immigration. A policy that I benefited from personally. The fact that the NHS is so heavily reliant on foreign nurses is a testament to the long-term failure of management and gov in not doing anything to produce a domestic supply of people, not a problem caused by Brexit. I'm pretty sure anyone wishing to come here to do nursing can fill in a form.

loss of our international status, further drop in value of £

Iv'e not seen any evidence of this.

We all worry about what might or might not happen in the future, but don't forget disaster was predicted forimmediately after the vote, if it was for Brexit - because of a change in behaviour by business and consumers.Even Paul Krugman a staunch Remainer called it 'motivated reasoning'

krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/06/30/the-macroeconomics-of-brexit-motivated-reasoning/?

As for the the brain drain..Presumably all these clever people fleeing are on the same flights as all the celeb's and luminaries who said they would leave the country if we left the EU?

Mutmad - I don't disagree with that. I think there is something fundamentally wrong with a system where you are better off not working than working.

I think it would be the death of democracy if we did. It's not rock paper scissors, you can't just do best of 3 until you get the answer you want.

Littlebird I also listen to Channel 5 tv news, Sky, CNN, ITV, Channel R, occasionally read the Mail scroll of shame (much to my chagrin) if that makes it any better for you and when my sister can't get an appt at the gp in less than a fortnight's time, it doesn't make it any less real because I hear about it on the telephone, not face to face. I am as British as you are, my actual location has nothing to do with it - but leaving that issue aside ...

Why does the NHS not choose to charge citizens from other countries? There should be an efficient system in place that enables them to do this. I can't think of any other countries (except Cuba perhaps) who offers free health care to anyone who happens to turn up!

As stated before in previous post, our national governments had and still have several opportunities to restrict and control immigration and have consistently failed to do so and are still failing to do so. The British refuse to instigate identity cards so don't even have accurate population figures.

Why is it insulting to say that public services require more funding in the UK? Personally I think they could benefit from taking higher taxes from those that can afford it.

Our children will have the same access to culture and travel, but they won't have the same opportunities to work in other countries (as explained in previous post). It will be more difficult and more costly.

Why do you assume we have the opportunity to move back to the UK? We have the same restrictions of property, schooling, jobs as anyone else.

Littlebird I have really tried to stay calm and not be insulting to you but your "little Jemima" comment is insulting and unkind.

Everyone wants the best for their children and I am no different and I make no apologies for it. Believe it or not, I want the best for your children too, and that is why I am adamantly anti-Brexit.

I want everyone's children to have the ability to work and live in other EU countries as they do now.

Surely you can see the economic benefits that being able to work in another EU country without visa restrictions brings to our British workers and companies?

had to jump through huge hurdles to get jobs

sometimes even over them...

I want everyone's children to have the ability to work and live in other EU countries as they do now

We had the ability to live and work all over Europe before the political EU was formed.

I want everyone's children to have the ability to work and live in other EU countries as they do now.

It would be interesting to see figures of how many British people we have that work in the EU (I know one who has been recently relocated) compared to how many EU nationals have moved here. In theory, I like the idea of being allowed to move to anywhere in the world without a Visa but in reality, when those all flock to mainly a couple of countries, it pushes the strains on those countries up and leaves the country that they're leaving behind less desirable to live and/or work in. If it was an equal distribution I think people would be more open to it. That's my opinion, anyway.

Mia1415 - I employ approx. 250 worried EU workers. I can't get UK citizens to do the jobs (trust me I've tried), so I'm genuinely worried about the future.

Just out of interest, how many of your EU workers claim in-work benefits that you know of and is the tax and NI on their salary likely to be more than the total they get from in-work benefits, their cost to the NHS, their costs to state pension provision, cost to educate their children, cost on social services, pressure on housing etc?

Perhaps the reason you can't get any UK citizens to do the job is because they are not prepared to live in awful conditions in HMOs, cannot leave the country in a few years time with the money they have made in the UK and buy a very cheap house in their home country, aren't entitled to top up benefits etc.

Whatever it takes to get out of Brexit is worth it.

I think we should have a chance to ratify whatever deal the Government gets - that's not a second referendum, it's asking people whether they still want to leave in the event of a 'No Deal' scenario. Ahead of that the Gov't should publish the impact reports so we can be very clear exactly what that's going to mean. Given that leavers all appear to have a different version of exactly what kind of Brexit they wanted, it doesn't seem reasonable to interpret that as the hardest possible deal then claim you're acting in the public interest.

sandy

We do not charge for the NHS because it is founded on the very principle that is free for all at the point of access. You are not punished or penalised in any way because you are poor/ from the EU/ or any other reason. No political party will touch the idea because it is a toxic. We value the health of everyone in the UK, not just those that can afford it.

Identity cards will not solve the housing crisis Sandy! Nor will they preempt all of the families planning to move here from the EU in the next few years making it impossible for schools, housing etc to plan or accommodate them.

I don't think you have any idea of the strain that this is causing from your house in the EU. I am sure it does all look unreasonable sitting in the dewy fields of France until you experience it here yourself.

I would like to see the children of tomorrow finding a job in their own country and the talent and wealth of creativity staying in the UK. Do I want to send them off to other countries, no, I would like them to enjoy and experience and outstanding future here. If they want to work overseas there are many places beyond the EU that will offer them immense opportunities.

If you don't mind me saying I think you are suffering from a small minded point of view, there IS life beyond the EU. A huge whole world of opportunities and cultures that are more advanced than the EU.

You are anti-brexit because you live in the EU and this is not good for you on a personal level, nothing to do with our country - the UK as a whole.

Businesses love the EU because it provides them with very cheap labour and they don't have to pay a living wage because other tax payers can subsidise their poverty wages so that their employees can afford to live in the UK (they can claim housing benefit, tax credits, free NHS, free schooling for their children etc). A lot of the reasons why they are against Brexit is because having to pay more for native labour will affect their profit margins and they won't get any more taxpayer provided subsidies, not because they care so much about the wellbeing of their EU employees.

We should have another referendum on whether to accept or reject the final terms that we arrive at, without question.

Given that no-one knew the type of Brexit they were voting for, I think they absolutely should be checking in with the population at this point, it's the morally right thing to do.

And Lord help us, it better be better run than the last time.

StoatofDisarray Hear hear...

The sovereignty question was paramount as to why I voted Leave..

Let's keep having a brexit referendum until the minority get what they want? No, I don't think so......

There cannot be another referendum...... It's not going to happen, so give it up.

M4Dad ">We had the ability to live and work all over Europe before the political EU was formed."

No. Incorrect. Free movement (which is what we are discussing) has been a fundamental right of EU citizens since the EEC was founded in 1957. This is the right we obtained in 1973. The policy of the government clearly recognises that Brexit means removing these rights from UK citizens. What replaces them cannot be the same - must be less - and therefore will leave both us, and our dc, in a position where we have fewer rights than we've had throughout our lives since 1st Jan 1973.

Littlebird77 as you don't know me, you can't possibly know that my concerns about Brexit are purely selfish ones. As it happens, I am deeply concerned about the future of the UK as a whole (a country I love).

I am very well aware of how the NHS functions. It benefits as much from immigration in terms of health care workers, doctors, nurses etc as it is used by immigrants.

I am not sitting in the dewy fields of France.

It's good that you want to stay solely in the UK and your dc to remain here - the reality is that very large numbers of UK students and workers have benefited from opportunities to travel and work in other EU member states. If this now comes to an end, it is quite likely that some or many of these same people will feeling growing resentment that they are not able to do what their parents, friends and relatives have been doing for the past 40 years. And equally, important, British companies abroad, and British interests and the British economy will suffer as a result.

Mia1415 - I employ approx. 250 worried EU workers. I can't get UK citizens to do the jobs (trust me I've tried), so I'm genuinely worried about the future.

Why do U.K. citizens not want to work for you, when EU citizens will?

Is it the wage level?
Is it conditions?

If your totes ok with importing people on the basis that they’re happier to work for less/put up with not ideal conditions, then can you not see how offensive that is?

It's utterly irrelevant if you recognise the Union or not to be honest.

How incredibly short-sighted of you, M4dad.

About half the population of the north of Ireland, and a significant minority of Scots don't recognise or support the union. English people viewing us as subsumed parts of their empire and thus pronouncing our opinions an irrelevance and riding roughshod over our rights to be treated equally is something that had seemed to be lessening. The decades of patient work that led to the Belfast Agreement shows that, as does the fact that it upheld the rights of all parts of the community to be treated equally whether they recognised the union or not.
The GFA is now being undermined by Brexit leading to discrimination against people from my community and our opinions once more being called irrelevant.
A peaceful and prosperous union is impossible amidst this climate.

Well it has become increasingly clear that no-one knew what they were voting for. I think the only sensible thing is to have a 2nd referendum on the final deal (or no deal )