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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

If a new referendum on Brexit was announced..

582 replies

bbcessex · 11/10/2017 07:51

Would you be up in arms about that?
Discussing last night.. I think given the margins in the last vote and the (being charitable) confusion and uncertainty over the Brexit plans, a new referendum would generally be accepted.

DH (remainer) thinks a re-vote is not constitutional & would cause uproar (amongst all).

Who is unreasonable ?

OP posts:
Moussemoose · 11/10/2017 18:50

M4Dad

When you refer to 'the EU' or 'it' which institution are you specifically referring to
The Commission, the Council and the Parliament

The Council is made up of democratically elected governments - so it is clearly democratic and accountable.

The Parliament - is a directly elected body - so is clearly democratic.

The Commissioners are selected by democratically elected governments - not ideal but considerably more democratic than the House of Lords.

How do these democratically elected or selected institutions make up a body you call "undemocratic and totalitarian" ?

M4Dad · 11/10/2017 18:53

Moussee,

This is the third time I'm going to ask you this.

Say the EU introduce a law or a policy that a lot of people don't like. How do we hold them to account for that policy? Short answer is, we can't. They are not democratically responsible for their actions

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 11/10/2017 18:54

I don't believe their should be another referendum despite voting remain

I don't believe there should have been a referendum in te first place it was so badly thought out but I willing voted as did millions of others

The downside of democracy is results that could possibly be hugely damaging to the country but the alternative is far worse

Sandycarrots · 11/10/2017 18:57

In answer to your three points, plus your further point, with apologies to Moussemoose and Bertrand who can more than hold their own ...

M4Dad

"Say the EU introduce a law or a policy that a lot of people don't like. How do we hold them to account for that policy? Short answer is, we can't. They are not democratically responsible for their actions"

In practice, the EU works very efficiently to make sure that there is a very broad consensus on the adoption of any new legislation and it is highly unusual that anything goes through the EU system which the key member states (including us) do not want. So in your scenario, these issues are resolved long before any legislation is actually adopted.

Sorry but in reality, the popular myth of a democratic deficit refers back to the old EU in the times when Member States had absolute veto powers. The modern EU has an increasingly strong democratically elected parliament whose role is to balance the individual interests of the individual Member States. Of course this frightens national politicians who see that the EU has a democratically represented will.

So the EU is a much more sophisticated construction than most people acknowledge and this is causing problems with how to deal with the repatriation of powers to London. We do not have the same checks and balances that the EU system has.

see Peter Millar's article here.

And btw, we played a very significant role in creating these checks and balances.

So unfortunately, even the most simple over-view of the EU, shows that these legitimate concerns are in fact wholly unfounded.

As for Greece:
I am afraid that the good citizens of Greece have been betrayed by their own political elite, not that of the EU. You simply cannot blame all of Greece's problems on the EU. Greek citizens were sadly misled by their national politicians.

The EU wanting to erode the Nation State:
quite clearly, the purpose of the EU is to enable nation states to share powers and competencies in order to be more efficient and effective. Which would you prefer? To be part of a leading global trading block of 28 nations whose influence is direct and effective across the globe, where we pay a significant part in directing its policy? Or would you prefer to be a single Nation State with lots of good ideas with no ability to command influence on the global stage?

Sovereignty would come with a considerable price. (We have maintained our collective sovereignity in the interests of pursuing our collective welfare, not only in matters of trade, but environment, food safety, environmental standards, animal welfare etc etc).

Soci · 11/10/2017 18:57

Anyone read the Guardian article on people who changed their mind about their vote? Either remainers who have been disappointed about how EU has behaved since the vote and would now vote leave or leavers who were disappointed that they were lied to before the vote and would now vote remain. It's quite interesting reading, although of course it's only a couple of people.

Fwiw, I absolutely think that public should have a say in the final brexit deal.

M4Dad · 11/10/2017 18:58

The EU is just a democratic facade. It's been perfectly engineered in it's construction to make it seem democratic but it isn't, it just isn't.

It reminds me of Oceania in 1984. "The Keepers of Democracy"

What a joke.

M4Dad · 11/10/2017 18:59

I see your reply, Sandy, will reply to you tomorrow. Good evening to you all.

Sandycarrots · 11/10/2017 19:02

Excellent M4Dad I look forward to debating with you again.

Moussemoose · 11/10/2017 19:03

M4Dad

They are democratically responsible because we can choose NOT TO VOTE FOR THEM AGAIN. In the case of the EU Parliament directly. In the case of the The Council via each countries own democratic elections.

The EU Parliament is directly elected, it holds The Commission to account.

The EU Parliament - which is directly elected - has power OVER the only body, The Commission that is not elected.

Elections hold the EU to account therefore the EU is democratically accountable. It is NOT either "undemocratic" or "totalitarian".

Moussemoose · 11/10/2017 19:07

M4Dad

The EU is just a democratic facade. It's been perfectly engineered in it's construction to make it seem democratic but it isn't, it just isn't

Yep - it's all those pesky elections that make it seem democratic.

ZenNudist · 11/10/2017 19:25

Id be all for it but sadly something so sensible as a vote on brexit once terms are known is politically impossible. Both how our sitting government is bent out of shape by nut job tory europhobes plus how the EU are acting in negotiations.

Im a remainer but if a vote on the deal were allowed there would be no chance of EU27 giving us a good deal so we will vote for it. Just a bad deal so we feel obliged to keep existing arrangements.

Its all awful. Either way we are royally screwed.

makeourfuture · 11/10/2017 19:31

We do not vote for the pan-EUropean groupings in the EU Parliament and have no representation in the dominant grouping

Cameron chose to leave the EPP and join some weird, right-wing faction. Labour, I believe, is a leading member of the S&D, the second largest group.

makeourfuture · 11/10/2017 19:54

And btw, we played a very significant role in creating these checks and balances

And even with the Court of Justice (civil law), Britain has had a great influence. While not bound by precedent, more and more the Court takes previous decisions into consideration.

Fresh8008 · 11/10/2017 19:55

given the margins in the last vote and the (being charitable) confusion and uncertainty over the Brexit plans, a new referendum would generally be accepted

YABU. A new referendum would not be accepted, as evidenced in the last general election where the only UK party advocating a second roll of the die, got even less votes than previously. There is just no evidence of many people wanting a second referendum.

I think a second referendum would cause serious uproar. It was a democratic vote in the country and in Parliament and technically a second referendum would be democratic but it would be using democracy to subvert democracy, so also against the spirit of democracy. Not very British.

The impact on negotiations with the EU of our intention to hold a second referendum would have devastating effects. It would probably destabilize our country for decades.

The genie is out of the bag...

The best hope remainers have is that after we leave the EU they start a political party to go back in and eventually they get enough support for a new referendum. That would be democratic.

MissionItsPossible · 11/10/2017 20:26

2/ if any apathetic voters actual got off their arses to vote.

The UK doesn't have mandatory voting though so if people aren't bothered or don't care why should they vote if they don't want to? (I agree and wish more people would vote as it's a right that many across the world don't have but I don't agree that those that don't want to should get off their arses and vote anyway).

Moussemoose · 11/10/2017 20:27

Fresh8008
but it would be using democracy to subvert democracy

Parliament is sovereign. In the UK what the House of Commons says goes. What you think should be democratic is irrelevant. We are a representative democracy so referenda serve to advise the HoC.

Throwing the term 'democratic' into a sentence doesn't always prove a point. Democracy has different forms. Implying - "Not very British" - that the UK is a good example of democracy is also very, very debatable. The House of Lords is selected and the House of Commons is an "elective dictatorship".
Bodge and bluster is the British way when it comes to constitutional issues.

ForalltheSaints · 11/10/2017 20:28

I would be delighted. Whether it was 'the deal or remain', or 'the deal or no deal'.

BoneyBackJefferson · 11/10/2017 20:35

MissionItsPossible

I would be interested to see whether they had been moved enough by what is going on to do something about it.

Or that politicians had decided to try and target them as a voting force.

Fresh8008 · 11/10/2017 20:43

Moussemoose, Parliament is sovereign. In the UK what the House of Commons says goes. What you think should be democratic is irrelevant. We are a representative democracy so referenda serve to advise the HoC.

And Parliament voted overwhelmingly to leave the EU. Its now a 'fait accompli'. Democracy has spoken.

Moussemoose · 11/10/2017 21:20

Fresh8008

The House of Commons can and does change it's mind all the time. For example the Fixed Term Parliamentary Elections Act was supposed to be binding constitutionally - big joke. The HoC voted to change it and changed it was.

That is how UK democracy works. With limited checks and balances the HoC changes it's mind and the change is law.

Moussemoose · 11/10/2017 21:23

There are many valid arguments about the lack of checks and balances in what passes for a constitution in the UK. However, this parliamentary dictatorship is what many Brexit supporters long for.

Hebenon · 11/10/2017 21:38

Why can't Corbyn implement his agenda under EU rules? Genuine question. I don't get why this would not be possible.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 11/10/2017 22:56

YABU. A new referendum would not be accepted, as evidenced in the last general election where the only UK party advocating a second roll of the die, got even less votes than previously

This diesnt necessarily follow

Personally i voted for the party I believed was better for the country and would deliver where i lived

I wasn't rehashing an apparently done deal referendum or picking a party on the basis of one policy

I don't believe i was the only person to do this

Fresh8008 · 11/10/2017 23:46

The House of Commons can and does change it's mind all the time
i agree but in this case it is wishful thinking... as no MP wants to lose their seat. That is 'democracy'.

Why can't Corbyn implement his agenda under EU rules? Genuine question. I don't get why this would not be possible.

Because not enough people voted for him , aka he lost.

makeourfuture · 12/10/2017 06:19

i agree but in this case it is wishful thinking... as no MP wants to lose their seat

Some would be in danger yes. Others would be heroes.

We would probably see a lot more of Farage again, but I don't think we should fear UKIP. Their views are nonsensical.

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