Page 26 | How would you feel if your 16 year old DS wanted to become a 'young conservative'

makeourfuture · 04/10/2017 08:49

You don't care for your family by spending all the wages on sweets on pay day (Labour policy) - you conserve - "conservative" and make sure everyone is looked after

Speaking of making a point for the other side....

Creambun2 · 04/10/2017 08:49

somone oh come on, please don't peddle the myth that many in the tory party are only there due to economic beliefs. Social conservatism is awful or do you think that people like rees-mog who hate gay people, single mothers and those who have abortions is a good thing?

Andrewofgg · 04/10/2017 08:58

I can't stand Rees-Mogg but I don't think it's right to say that he hates women who have had an abortion. He just thinks they should not have been allowed to. He's an arse but let's be clear which sort of arse.

And give him credit for a bit of insight into himself, at some meeting at conference yesterday he said I was young once. I wasn't very good at it.

Fekko · 04/10/2017 08:59

Are his views as a catholic or a conservative?

Andrewofgg · 04/10/2017 09:02

I think more as a Catholic. He's the sort who would vote for a Labour candidate who was against abortion (rare these days) rather than a Tory who was for it, or rather for not banning it again.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 04/10/2017 09:08

I think more as a Catholic. He's the sort who would vote for a Labour candidate who was against abortion (rare these days) rather than a Tory who was for it, or rather for not banning it again

I think that is correct. Stella Creasy got some support in the travelling from NI to UK for abortion issue from Andrea Leadsom and Sir Peter Bottomley. You can't assume all Tories are anti-abortion.

ArcheryAnnie · 04/10/2017 09:12

I can't stand Rees-Mogg but I don't think it's right to say that he hates women who have had an abortion.

This is entirely irrelevant. I don't care if someone who sets out to do something that damages women, damages them because he hates them, or because he doesn't think they have a right to bodily autonomy, if the end result is the same.

Someoneasdumbasthis · 04/10/2017 09:43

Just as I think you might be wearing red. I would never be disappointed or any of the other more nasty comments about a child of mine having different political beliefs than mine. It started there on this post then descended into pure Tory bashing.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 04/10/2017 10:23

"Don't people on the right think they are morally superior?"
What a mindset. Speaks volumes, that.

derxa · 04/10/2017 10:37

So much pomposity on this thread.

AutumnStorm · 04/10/2017 11:23

My 16 year old son has been interested in politics since he was about 9 or 10 years old.
He does things for the Labour party, his old head of year is a Labour party councillor and he goes out with him leafleting and stuff like that.

He has his own views on things and hasn't been brainwashed by myself or his dad.
I'm proud of him that he has known for a long time what he's interested in and is pursuing his dreams.

BroomstickOfLove · 04/10/2017 11:29

The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt has some interesting ideas about the different moral values of people who are liberal v conservative (in US political terms).

He argues that there are 6 key moral foundations that people base their values on:

Care/harm: cherishing and protecting others.

Fairness/cheating: rendering justice according to shared rules.

Liberty/oppression: the loathing of tyranny.

Loyalty/betrayal: standing with your group, family, nation.

Authority/subversion: obeying tradition and legitimate authority.

Sanctity/degradation: abhorrence for disgusting things, foods, actions.

People who have more left wing/ liberal politics tend to prioritize the first three, and have much lower levels of disgust etc, whereas people with more right wing/conservative views tend to value all 6 more or less equally. He goes on to claim that this is partly due to the way our individual brain s work and that the neurotransmitters which predispose us to our political views are inheritable.

I haven't actually read the book, just read reviews, and it sounds a bit far-fetched in places, but throws out some interesting ideas.

BertrandRussell · 04/10/2017 11:57

So are people arguing for complete moral equivalence? That we should think our own moral code is better than someone else's? I don't see how that can possibly work!

BertrandRussell · 04/10/2017 12:00

"I would never be disappointed or any of the other more nasty comments about a child of mine having different political beliefs than mine' Really? Whatever they were?

Restingwitchface · 04/10/2017 12:02

lease don't peddle the myth that many in the tory party are only there due to economic beliefs

huh? This is not a myth. My PILS vote Tory purely because they want to protect their financial interests. Ditto my parents.

Its a bit disengenous not to realise this.

Restingwitchface · 04/10/2017 12:03

I was really disappointed in DH for voting Leave. I don't think I'd be AS disappointed if my child voted for an opposing party. Not sure why that is.

sinceyouask · 04/10/2017 12:04

Yes Bertrand I genuinely think the left despise the right and the language on here from the left has been far more personal in its attack.

On this thread alone or on the board in general?

Frequency · 04/10/2017 13:22

If I am honest, I think the majority of the nastiness and judgement on this thread and in general, comes from the right.

Left voters are looked down upon as uneducated, lazy and grabby. Right voters are considered selfish and uncaring (in general). To me, uneducated, lazy and grabby are worse insults than selfish and uncaring, however that's just me as I lean left, I am biased.

It really bothers me when people assume because I am a single parent, low income left leaning voter, that I am uneducated and looking to claim as much as I can from the state. Without going in outing detail, nothing could be further from the truth. I've worked since I was a child and I enjoy study.

I'd much rather be thought of as selfish and uncaring than lazy and feckless.

derxa · 04/10/2017 14:00

Left voters are looked down upon as uneducated, lazy and grabby.
Not on MN they're not.

babySchmaby · 04/10/2017 14:15

@Frequency

Assuming that that's what people do assume, how are they wrong? As a single, low-income parent, could you support yourself without the state?

Is it in your personal interests to have a government in power which lavishes benefits (at the expense of other pressing needs and common sense)?

It would be a turkey-voting-for-christmas situation if you were to vote for a government which believes in less state intervention.

Frequency · 04/10/2017 14:32

Dexra, imo, they are. However, it could just be that I notice it more due to my own circumstances and past and it stays with me longer, whereas I'm more likely to forget insults aimed at the right more quickly.

I dare say, that's why both sides feel they are the ones being unfairly bullied. There is, most probably, an equal amount of bile on both sides. We just notice it more when we feel it's aimed at 'us.'

babySchmaby - No, I couldn't. I've already said, I claim working tax and child tax credits but that is not a situation which I aspire to be in. I'd much rather be, and am constantly striving towards becoming, self reliant.

That's the difference, imo, between the reality of single parents and left voters and the perception of them. Yes, we (in general) believe in and support a relatively generous welfare system but we (again, in general) do not believe that it's something to aspire to or a long term solution. We'd rather see people helped into helping themselves by funding education, creating jobs and funding viable, affordable childcare options.

makeourfuture · 04/10/2017 15:08

I could not possibly care less about insults on this board.

What matters is that Tory policies don't work, are based on sick and twisted Social Darwinistic class crap, and make people die and suffer.

babySchmaby · 04/10/2017 15:09

Of course you believe in a generous welfare system. You can't be self-sufficient and are dependent on it.

I'm not sure you actually support it; you take from it.

Funding childcare - hmm. Isn't that simply shifting the burden?

Job creation comes from a booming economy, not spending the nation's reserves, safe in the knowledge that another government will be left with the mess.

Besides funding your lifestyle, Labour don't do anything else for you. As well as disagreeing with Labour's economic policies, its leadership and shadow cabinet, its empty promises and its worryingly radical policies, I am starting to have a 'why should I' attitude towards those who live off the state but want support in different ways; demanding more and more and more when the country needs to consider its outgoings so that it can pay off debts from previous governments. .

Frequency · 04/10/2017 15:11

At the end of the day, we can't all be GPs, surgeons and bankers. I mean, theoretically, we can be. There's nothing stopping a single parent from a working class background becoming a doctor, but if we all did that, who's going to mind the children while we're performing surgery on each other?

There has to be people at the bottom. We need people to empty bins, staff our shops, mind our children and clean our schools. We need dinner ladies and hairdressers and street sweepers. And those people deserve a decent standard of living. Of course, they shouldn't have the same standard as a surgeon or banker etc but they should be able to pay their bills, keep a roof over their head and not panic when they're kids come home declaring that need new shoes and plan a little holiday every couple of years or so. For that to happen, we need to subsidise their wages or lower the cost of living. To me, left leaning parties offer that more than right leaning parties do.

It's not about giving everyone something for nothing, it's about making sure that people from all walks of life have a decent standard of living. I don't see the Tories offering that.

BertrandRussell · 04/10/2017 15:15

"Of course you believe in a generous welfare system. You can't be self-sufficient and are dependent on it."

I believe in a generous welfare system too. And I don't depend on it, and believe in higher taxes for the better off to pay for it.