To wonder if feminism fucked us over

[splendidisolation]

Looking around at lots of relationships -

Women got the right to work and make money.

In many cases this seems to mean that they now have the right to pay bills, rents and mortgages as well as doing the lions share of cooking, household chores and childcare whilst feeling under intense pressure to engage in hardcore grooming and be sex goddesses.

In the 60s many women didnt work and let their lady gardens grow free - it was all men really knew or wanted.

Fast forward 50 years and they're expected to have careers and strip it all off.

Im muddling loads of points here but does anyone see what I mean?

My DP is pretty good but I still pull more weight than him. The other evening I got home late and started to get up to make dinner. He was like "dont bother yourself making dinner, lets just make sandwiches".

Sandwiches? Bother? I mean, I appreciate the gesture mate but its like...why not just make fucking dinner yourself?

Sorry for this rambling, ranting and general mish mash of thoughts.

Feel free to muse!

Unfortunately I think too many women continue to do and take responsibility for the wifework when they go back to work. When they've been on maternity leave and end up doing it all when they are at home it is quite difficult to stop that and make it equal. I do believe that until women start expecting men to do the same of them around drop off/pickup and sickness days for example and actually physically stop doing all this stuff, it won't change. Many women still put their career below their partners because their partner is the main earner, this then stops them becoming the main earner and so the cycle continues. We should be working towards it becoming the norm for men to take as much time off as women for child stuff.

Unfortunately additionally it's still what society expects and many women aren't strong enough to stand up to it and say no to stuff. If you keep doing the same thing you'll get the same result. Whilst there are some things that are difficult to live with if your partner doesn't help out e.g. washing up left everywhere, there are lots of things that you can free yourself from worrying about/doing. E.g doing all the washing and ironing, organising and sending family birthday cards and presents etc.

What women need is for men to catchup, we have forged ahead however they don't want to give up their cosy little worlds because why would they - it's more work for them!

I feel fucked over, but I don't know if it's by feminism. I went to a girls' school and was encouraged endlessly to get a good education because it would provide me with 'choices' in life, allow me to be independent. I could go to university, have a career I chose.

But I followed that advice and now am the higher earner in my relationship which means I have had no choice since having kids - I HAD to go back to work at 6 months each time, because he can't support us, I HAVE to work full time now. I have no choice in it, no chance to be a SAHM. I don't really feel I have much choice in life at all.

I frequently think I would have more choice, more freedom, a more enjoyable life, if I'd just focused on marrying a higher earner instead of trying to be independent.

I don't think feminism is the issue. I think the issue is that it hasn't yet empowered more women to not accept lazy men who don't do their fair share. It's now accepted that women can work if they want, should have their own money etc, but there's still a way to go with men's attitudes.

I firmly believe, however, that a massive part of the problem with men's attitudes is women. Not in a "It's all women's fault" way, but we don't help. Even down to simple things like tonight two of my friends commented on my husband 'babysitting' while I was out for an hour. If they hold that attitude then their husbands, and crucially for changing things in the future their sons, also hold that attitude. Women have changed so much for themselves over the years and this is another thing we have to change for ourselves.

Luckily for me PIL were quite unusual for their generation in that MIL was a higher earner and FIL did all their cooking because he was very good at it. So DH and BIL were brought up with a Dad who did more housework than their Mum.

I have a friend who has a miserable marriage. Also married to a lazy fucker. And she can't leave because she could not manage on her salary. I'm certainly glad I chose to be the high earner myself - not that I want to leave DH (who incidentally does a fair share of housework and half the pick-ups/drop-offs). But it's nice to know that if needed, I have the option.
Thanks feminism!

Jesus Christ, this thread. So you're married to some lazy inconsiderate bastard but it's FEMINISM'S fault? Well if it wasn't for those evil feminists, the same guy could beat and rape you with impunity, take all your money and assets on marriage, leave you destitute, lock you in an asylum or take your children from you. Which is a bit worse than forgetting to load the dishwasher.

And as a PP said, most women DID work as well as kèep house. They didn't sit around like Lady Cora in Downton Abbey ffs, they worked in factories and on farms, they didn't have household gadgets that make life so much easier for us, they had multiple pregnancies and hard, hard lives.

I think some people are confusing capitalism and globalisation with feminism

Of course not all men are crap in the home. In my case it helped that I didn't get together with DH until we were both in our 30s with our own homes. He was taught how to cook, shop, iron, clean etc by his mum and carried on doing that when we married. Due to disability, as ended up as the breadwinner, after seven years as a SAHM when the DCs were small. He has continued to do all of the shopping and cooking, we share the cleaning, I do the laundry. We share things like Christmas and birthdays. We have brought up our DSs in the same way and they also do a lot of housework - they are adults now living with us still.

I would never have married a man who expected me to do all of the wifework. Feminism is still needed and is not to blame for this. The men who make shitty partners and husbands are.

• I ended up as the breadwinner

I can see exactly where you are coming from. I am 'lucky' in that we have two adopted children who need me home all the time so I'm not 'expected' to work!
There have been a few posts lately where the poster has said that not only are they expected to contribute half, but pay all child care, do all house work, look after pets and children and a full time job. there was one just last week where everyone was telling her to get out a.s.a.p.
I am one of the lucky ones with a very traditional marriage where we share everything including money - he earns it I spend it!!!

It's not just attitudes at home. I don't have a lazy OH, but I find the corporate world very hostile to parents and subsequently to women
Women are still treated with caution when it comes to employment, late night meetings scheduled, unnanounced overtime, hard for employees with school age or sick children.
In some industries women are hardly represented at all.
I worked in an academic research department, I was the only female in a technical role in a team or 48 men.
My OH works for a technical company- 35 employees- 3 are women, and all in admin, no females in management or technical positions.

This disparity is echoed in many industries, politics, finance, education.
It's a woman's choice if she want to live with a lazy man, it's harder to change a workplace.

It's not feminism that fucked you over, it's the patriarchy.

Your OP demonstrates how far we still have to go, when even one of the 'good ones' thinks he deserves a medal for making a fucking sandwich.

I wouldn't blame feminism. Its got us a lot of rights and equalities. I blame a society that drip feeds girls from a young age that its their responsibility to do all the gruntwork in the home. All those adverts that show its the women who is doing the cleaning or cooking. All the toy adverts that show the little boy with his carpentry set and the girl with her pram and ironing board. All of that shit is an insidious message to both boys and girls what their future role in life is expected to be.
All the little sexist jokes, all the 'girls are princesses and are judged on their prettiness' all of this crap that is constantly around us telling us women have to be pretty and groomed and keep a clean home and look after their family by making lovely meals. All of this is what you are fighting against.
This is why it pisses me off when someone complains about a sexist advert or too much pink for girls and other women say "oh get a grip its trivial nonsense/bit of fun" etc etc. because all of this adds up to women subconsciously absorbing the message that they are responsible for the wifework and men to think they arent.

Women are getting the shitty end of the stick and you think there's no place for feminism?

I blame feminism for climate change and Brexit.

The idea of feminism is great. Give women a choice, if they want to work they can. Worked well until housing costs got so ridiculous that now it's nothing about choice. Like it or not you HAVE to work if you want a family home and a mortgage or rent.

If mortgage lenders had been better regulated from the late 90s onwards then couples wouldn't have overstretched themselves and put all their combined income towards a mortgage. Yes it was awful that women didn't used to be allowed to apply for their own mortgage and I'm glad that changed. But mortgage lenders should have put a maximum limit on couples buying a house jointly.

The guidelines used to be 3 times a single person's salary if you were buying as a single person. Or 2.5 times if you were in a couple. A single person could afford to buy a house on that guideline years ago, which seems amazing now.

Lenders should never have been allowed to permit huge income multiples. 5 or 6 times an individual's salary? Have it. If you both work you can have LOADS more. See a big house you really love? Don't worry about it , you're a young working couple, you can have that huge mortgage, you deserve that big lovely posh house like the one you saw in Hello magazine. Couples overstretched themselves and it inflated housing costs big time and then the shit hit the fan when these young affluent couples realised that their options for one of them staying at home when they started a family had been fucked forever.

Feminism isn't the reason that women now have no choice BUT to work. The banks are. I hate working full time. DH certainly does pull his weight but life is no fun when you both come in from work and straight into food shopping or cooking or doing a load of ironing. I want to spend time with my kids helping them with homework and hearing about their day. Or letting them have friends over for a play date. I want to be able to be there when they've had a shit day at school and make them feel a bit better by giving them a nice bit of home made cake I made earlier.

I want to spend weekends doing fun family things but half the time DH and I are doing household chores. Ideally I would like to work part time and have a couple of days off in the week to be here for the kids coming in from school and to get the chores out the way so that the weekend is mostly fun time.

That choice is gone. Feminism was supposed to be about CHOICE of whether to work. Feminism can't possibly give that choice any more. So we have to change the meaning of feminism.

Fucking cunting babysitting
Really makes me mad
What a favour you're going babysitting your own bloody children
And it's the patricachy
We've a long way to go. 10,000 years doesn't go away in 30 year

My DH does more than me around the house. He does all the cooking and vacuuming. I bung a load in the washing machine and occasionally iron a shirt for him.

We both work with similar pay. No kids.

I don't feel any pressure to groom myself. I have two weeks worth of fuzz on my legs!

So, they are out there. If I was no longer with DH I could not be arsed to look for someone else. Because I realise that a lot of guys still rule the roost and expect their wives to take care of everything. And that's not for me.

bloody feminists

Timefortea99

It's a lot easier when no kids are involved.

I didn't give feminism much thought until I had kids.

My OH did equal housework, both earned similar amounts, equality. All good.

Throw some kids into the mix and see where things land.

That's when the difficulties happen.

OP YANBU to wonder this. I've definitely thought it myself. Hasn't it just had the consequence that we're housewives AND wage slaves, instead of just being housewives?

I think that the others on this thread who say that the problem is not feminism, the problem is that it hasn't gone far enough are right.

It will take a while. It blows my mind when I think that just a hundred years ago, we didn't even have the right to VOTE. We've come a very long way in that short time - when you compare it to the rest of human history.

We have a very equal house. I would rather have stayed single my whole life than settle for less.
So many women seem to sleepwalk into unequal relationships and then find themselves angry and astonished about how things are. I hate sexist selfish men but people should take some responsibility for the partners and lives they choose.

I'm a single working parent so do everything myself anyway. However I'm bringing my son up to know men and women are equal as I believe attitudes like that start at home. If I have a serious relationship again I wouldn’t stand for what you descripe in your post. I would never choose to be with a man or woman who didn't treat me as an equal. I also wouldn't want my son to see that.
It isn't feminisms fault that there is an imbalance in your relationship.

Totally unreasonable, goady and frankly really, really ignorant.

Feminism has brought us innumerable rights, freedoms and opportunities. It needs space and room to change hearts and minds even further.

We have a very equal house.

Equal is not always the same as fair.

I'm amazed that anyone can assert with a straight face that it's women's own fault for not having the financial wherewithal to hire a cleaner, send out laundry etc etc.

Yes to this.

And tippz, you are projecting your experience onto everyone. It isn't true.

Yes that's true, we've come a long way. You can see it when we compare how things are for us with how they are for women in other parts of the world. Like Saudi Arabia, where women have just been permitted to drive and that's seen as a major achievement.

Yes we have a long way to go but we've also come a long way from 100 years ago.