Anti-Semitism and the British Left

[bluebeau]

Here they go again. Why does the British Left have such an antisemitism problem?

Labour fringe speaker's Holocaust remarks spark new antisemitism row

A senior Labour MP has said he is shocked at some of the anti-Semitic tweets by party members that come before its disciplinary panel. John Cryer said some of what is written "makes your hair stand up", adding: "This stuff is redolent of the 1930s."

After the Chakrabarti whitewash, I'm not listening to anything Corbyn and the left have to say any more. And don't even get me started on Ken Livingstone. I'll never trust Labour or the left ever again, until they stand up and say, "We allowed anti-semitism to arise within Labour. We just went,'deny, deny, deny' and looked the other way. We were wrong". Then, and only then, will I ever give them the time of day once again.

I doubt it is just coincidental that anti-semitism has only reared its ugly head of late, since Corbyn took over as leader of the Labour party. I'm not saying there was none at all before then, but that was when it got bad. Did you see, a few months back, a Liberal Democrat MP with anti-semitic views started shooting his mouth off? LibDem leader at the time, Tim Farron just turned around and fired him, immediately. That's leadership. Corbyn, on the other hand, has let Labour party anti-semites run riot and basically done nothing. He didn't even deal decisively with Livingstone, who should have been banned from Labour ten times over by now.

Corbyn has damaged forever Labour's reputation as a non-racist party. It took decades to build up that reputation, and just one world class muppet to ruin it.

histy I made a comparison with Trump. Not sure you even no what whataboutery is if you're coming out with that.

I'm not even convinced the thread was meant to be about antisemitism. Seemed more like an attempt to equate Labour and the left with the far right (hence the Trump comparison, because he loves trying to equate anti-fascists with fascists), and to slur Muslims.

You're doing it again. I dont think you can contend actually my points without deliberately distorting them can you?

"wipe Israel out" No: I specifically said it was Hamas, Hezbollah and their Iranian (amongst other) backers that want to do this. The left are for some reason unquestioning in their support for these organisations. This I believe is the result of them not being exposed to contrary opinions, views and facts. I do not believe they are inspired with the desire to see Jewish / Israeli blood running in the streets, as certain terrorists groups are.

You seemed to be positively annoyed that "the left" thinks Saudi Arabia is an awful state. No: I said the left freely and readily accuse Saudi of its barbarity and repressiveness, rightly so. Whilst they defend Iran, who are equally as appalling and repressive. Only Iran does so with an Anti Western emphasis. This makes me suspicions as to why this should be.

I have been a Labour voter / Party Member since 1987, (narrowly missing the 1982 GE). However do not support Labour in its current, Corbynite form. If this puts you in a position of dismay, after reading my reasons why -- then so be it.

Here they go again. Why does the British Left have such an antisemitism problem? Labour fringe speaker's Holocaust remarks spark new antisemitism row

Was the opening sentence of the original post.

Yet you're not convinced the thread was meant to be about antisemitism? Please explain why you believe we've wandered so far off topic?

I'm happy to talk about antisemism on the right (which is growing and v troubling) but it's not what the thread was about and You'd accuse me of whataboutary, surely.

It's interesting that your posts sit next to a poster who says things like 'Israel gleefully murders' 'Israel wants to wipe out' (you never hear Egypt laughs at Christian deaths/ Syria kills babies- do you?) and also baselessly accuses me of racism and from you, slarti, not a squeak.

Smells like the labour conference.

cracked Sugarcoma claimed that the Left don't want Israel to exist because it protects Jews and without it it would be "open season" on Jews again. You agreed, stating that if Israel were wiped out the Left could play the protectors. Now you claim I'm distorting you? That's just one example, there are plenty from other posters comparing Labour to Nazis and implying that we have a hatred for Jews and want to see them come to harm. It's paranoid conspiracy theory territory and pretty damn offensive.

And I'm aware how the OP reads. If someone started a thread saying "Here we go again, why do Muslims have such a problem with paedophilia" I'd be just as skeptical about whether the true intentions were to talk about the problems of paedophilia or to use that subject as a stick to beat one specific group with. And look at the first page, the very first reply mentions Muslims, then a few posts further "it's their method to attract minority groups such as the muslims who don't like Jews". So you might be absolutely convinced this was just about antisemitism, but I'm not sure.

I think there is always room for arbitration. When two parties are brought together, very often they begin to see that no matter how strong the views held, areas of common interest can be found.

histiny was there a squeak from you when Labour were called Nazis? Any other whataboutery you want to throw in? It seems to be a speciality of yours.

No it isn't- you're the one who is desperate not to talk about the lefts problem with antisemitism.

I get it. You think there is no problem. Very interesting.

"It's interesting that your posts sit next to a poster who says things like 'Israel gleefully murders' 'Israel wants to wipe out' (you never hear Egypt laughs at Christian deaths/ Syria kills babies- do you?) and also baselessly accuses me of racism and from you, slarti, not a squeak. "

This on spades. In Pakistan it is a crime to criticise the profit Mohammed. A christian school student was beaten to death by his muslim class mates recently for drinking out of the same glass as a mulim. In Egypt the state is designed to favour Muslims over Christians. Churches are regularly bombed and attacked. The Christian populations of both countries are falling sharply. Is this a problem for those who hate Israel? of course not, these are Muslims states, they are supposed to favour Muslims. But a Jewish state? thats when it's a problem, thats when democracy matter and thats where the line is. All the criticism thrown at Israel in this thread can be made of many Muslim states but that doesn't matter because they aren't Jews and so are heald to different standards.

How on earth can there be any progressive discussion though when one side has already decided the other hates Jews and is at the very least indifferent to transgressions of Muslims and at most in favour of them?

And once again it's whataboutery with Muslim transgressions. They aren't mentioned because this isn't a thread about Muslims (or so I'm told). Not mentioning something that the thread supposedly isn't about is not proof that anyone supports it.

histiny if you don't think you should be held to account for things other people have said (which you shouldn't, that would be ridiculous) stop trying to do that to me. It absolutely IS whataboutery when you are saying "What about this thing someone else said." You are trying to imply things about me based on what someone else said, it's ridiculous.

All the criticism thrown at Israel in this thread can be made of many Muslim states

Start a thread about it and I will absolutely 100% agree with you, and if anyone equates criticism of the actions of Muslim states with Islamophobia I'll say exactly what I've said on this thread.

And I'll say again, for a thread that was supposedly about antisemitism in Labour there is a hell of a lot of mentions of Muslims...

I'm still fucked off that some twat has decided that I - I'm not sure why - think Palestinians are not human

I wouldn't let it get to you too much, histiny ... not for the first time, it's noticeable that those who are most articulate in challenging unreason tend to be targeted for the greatest invective. Should they dare to make an unarguable statement of fact, the post will either be ignored or turned into something which bears no relation to what was actually said

Given that so many have openly said there's fault on all sides, this seems a shame; I'd have hoped it might have paved the way for a sensible discussion about at least trying to find a way forward, but instead it's degenerating into the usual position, where anything but the most slavish adherence to the narrative of "Palestine good - Israel bad" is deemed unacceptable

Well put...Good points puzzled

"How on earth can there be any progressive discussion though when one side has already decided the other hates Jews"

so from the above to the below

"And I'll say again, for a thread that was supposedly about antisemitism in Labour there is a hell of a lot of mentions of Muslims..."

so your saying i'm a racist for mentioning muslim states in a discussion regarding anti semitism

if you can't see why that is so blinkered i doubt you ever will

So much whataboutery. Yet claims that there is no whataboutery.

Whataboutery: the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counter-accusation or raising a different issue.

HTH

It seems that the only way Israeli apologists can respond is by a whole load of whataboutery.

Again, for your edification, the 3 d's of why anti-Zionism often strays over into anti-semitism. One of them being double standards.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_Test_of_Antisemitism

so your saying i'm a racist for mentioning muslim states in a discussion regarding anti semitism

What? Where on earth did I say that?

Oh dear crackednips, where do I even begin with your posts. I shall try...

So the settlements aren't legal? Please site for us the consensual agreements that state this?

I initially thought you were being deliberately inflammatory, but now I think you simply do not have a clue. You say that you have lived in Israel, so perhaps thatexplains why you are so clueless about things as Israel has a very effective propaganda machine for its own people and for the rest of the world.

The settlements are illegal under international law. The Fourth Geneva Convention, which concerns civilian populations during a time of war, states in Article 49 that, "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."

United Nations Security Council resolution 2334, which the United States did not veto, and was passed in December 2016, angering Israel, reaffirms this position. It states that settlements have "no legal validity" and constitute "a flagrant violation under international law." The resolution references previous Security Council resolutions 242, 338, 446, 452, 465, 476, 478, 1397, 1515, and 1850. Of these, 465, 476, and 478 established that settlements have "no legal validity" in 1980.

Reference: edition.cnn.com/2017/02/01/middleeast/settlements-explainer/index.html

show me where I said or have implied Palestinians are less than human.

You said it. I want to know why you said it.

We're having a discussion about antisemitism in the left and for some reason you decided to call me a racist of the worst kind.

Come on, let's hear your analysis. I'm sure it will make sense to someone...

Those Israeli residents (not all of them Jews btw) who sat in chairs on a hill to watch the action in Gaza are families from Sderot, which has been bombarded with rockets, RPGs and sniper fire for many years. Many of them spent weeks in bomb shelters. So you should probably allow them a chance to breath some fresh air again and watch those of Hamas and PIJ who have terrorised them for months finally get what they deserve.

This is the most abhorrent and utterly vile thing I have read. You have dehumanised Palestinians. How easily you justified the Israeli Sderot actions with complete and utter disregard for the children that died from Israeli bombs whilst the sderot families obviously needed to enjoy fresh air. Absolutely heinous what you wrote your message stands for all to see how callous you can be.

You matter, the families in sderot matter, to kill Hamas matters, but the Palestinian children living in amongst it all do not matter. They are just an unfortunate collateral damage. Your views are sickening and dangerous.

Waits (drums fingers impatiently)

Histiny, You have post after post after post full of whataboutery. Any criticism of Israel is met with whataboutery. What about syria, what about Pakistan, what about Saudi Arabia. You defend the indefensible with whataboutery. You are so busy defending with whataboutery, that you forget there are real lives, human lives that are known as Palestinians who are living a soul destroying existence, languishing in the open air prison that is Gaza. You are defending and fighting to maintain the status quo. That demeans and de-humanises the Palestinians. What about Syria, what about Pakistan, what about, what about Iran, what about Saudi Arabia. Distract and deflect and just ignore the Palestininans. you simply do not see them. Their suffering has become 'normal' to you whereby you stand and defend the indefensible and then are terribly affronted when told that you defending the indefensible is dehumanising Palestinians.

You mentioned upthread that 'calling for the destruction of Israel is anti semitic'. What then, would you call the act of destruction of Palestinian farms, the settlement building on Palestinian land except destruction of Palestine. Just to clarify, this is not someone calling for the destruction of Palestinian land, but actually perpetrating and participating in the destruction of Palestinians.

The dehumanisation of Palestinians at the hands of Israel is a stain on humanity.

So you're planning on ignoring the double standard then?

All this "open-air prison" bollocks you people parrot. Who is in charge of Gaza? Israel? No, Hamas is, the Palestinians elected them. So if their lives are not what they want perhaps they need a government that spends all that aid money on their people, rather than on rockets and exalted lifestyles for leaders such as Khaled Mashaal. And Gazans are not short of food, the World Health Organization says they have one of the highest rates of obesity in the world.

Their leadership has failed them, not Israel.

It's a thread about anti-semitism. It's hardly whataboutery to wonder why other countries/other peoples don't have the same level of opprobrium levelled at them as the Jewish state

This ^^ Indeed some might regard it as the very opposite of "whataboutery", given the context of the thread title

Occasionally it's hard to avoid thinking that whataboutry is shorthand for "something I don't have an answer to, and which I wish you hadn't mentioned"