To wonder who's life would be prioritised, mother or baby?

[splendidisolation]

Just one of those random train of thought questions that popped up in my head.

Imagine this theoretical scenario, a mother is giving birth and the doctor's have to decide whether to save her life or the newborn on its way out.
Ethically, which would they be forced to choose and why?

Imagine the mother's partner or a family member is present. Obviously horrific, but would they be asked to decide? Who makes that decision?

Interesting to note that Southern Ireland are going to have another referendum on the stance regarding abortion.

Thanks for sharing that EndofSummer As an older mum you should have been consultant led with lots of scans. This was five years ago I take it?

I was 39 when I had my last child, in 2001, and was given a dating scan (in which it was discovered he had a missed twin - empty sac), an anomaly scan, all okay but he was transverse and low placenta. I was then regularly checked until his 'uneventful' but joyous birth.

You're welcome CoolCarrie

Just quietly pointing out (without wishing to derail) that it's Ireland having the referendum, not Southern Ireland.

Hush now NoCry

you are right

pallisers, that was a misinterpretation of the law by the medical personnel. The sepsis protocol didn't insist on waiting until the foetal heart stopped.That's point people are missing and why it's such a bad case for everyone to keep referencing.

Thanks Maryz. I presumed this when I read the case first but I was very surprised when reading an Irish mothers' forum (HM) that many women had actually undergone similar treatment - pregnancy was not viable but D&C not administered until heartbeat undetected. I think it was a fairly systemic misinterpretation. I also think the situation wrt abortions in Ireland is facilitated by the utter lack of leadership from the medical community. The Irish obs/gyns should be way more proactive than they are.

I do believe you Maryz and don't think you are pushing your own agenda either way. It's important to see the facts.

I could be misremembering, however there was a discussion, too brief, that medical staff in general were often acting on the side of saving the foetus, rather than best medical procedure, because many were unsure and nervous of crossing the line and aborting a foetus against moral and legal directives. So the culture was unduly affecting medical decisions, as this wasn't a one off.

In my case, I should have been offered an anomaly scan, I'm sure thus would have been medical procedure, however I asked, and asked, and got fobbed off and asked intrusive critical questions, as if I were asking in order to abort. There is a lot of biased practise here.

The medical team makes that decision and when in doubt it's about preserving the life of the mother as

she may have other children to care for

she can have another baby

It's not left up to the NOK ...

Puzzledandpissedoff - just to add - Marital Rape in Ireland was only made illegal in 1990!!! I saw a quote somewhere to the effect that a rape victim could receive a longer jail sentence for getting an abortion that her rapist for raping her. Never happened but legally it could is the point they were making.

Coolcarrie - your Taliban comment made me laugh out loud! Thank You! It's so true and with the same hypocrosy from the Catholic Church. I was a teenager in the 80's there and found it suffocating, my Mum grew up in the 40's and that was a whole other story - almost make the Taliban look progressive. All the while they were abusing children in their care! Don't start me on the Church and its grip on Irish Politics and how it ruined the lives of so many women in Ireland. Things that women could not do in the 1970's in Ireland. Keep their jobs in the public service or bank when they married, sit on a jury, collect their children's allowances (only the father could do that and they often drank it on the way home), get a restraining order against a violent husband, own their home outright, buy contraceptives, not refuse to have sex with their husband (hence natural rape not being a crime), choose her official place of residence (she was deemed to have the same "domicile" as her husband, not get equal pay (obviously) - not all coming from the Catholic Church for sure but a society v male dominated. I left as soon as I could and would never to back. The Church also banned books in Ireland like "Country Girls" by Irish Writer Edna O'Brien - they banned movies which they deemed unsuitable because people kissed - they were radical at times in their control and acted as censor! And only ever interested in the rich!

In law the fetus has no rights, it's the woman every time. By the way the partner also maybe next of kin but cannot consent for her whatsoever. They have no right to be present, it's a courtesy and accepted norm.

Yes the Catholic Church's stance on contraception has a lot to answer for. In Africa it's contributed to the spread of AIDS. Men who have visited brothels then go home and infect their wives, who are not allowed to refuse sex of course.

But it's not just the Catholic Church. My DM, who has never been remotely Catholic, used not to believe that rape within marriage existed. Even recently her advice when I was struggling sexually because of past abuse, 'lie back and think of England'.

It's no wonder there's so much anger in these threads.

Thank goodness for restricted rights of the next of kin! annoyed
I'm not sure mine would choose me over the baby...

I wish to apologise to Maryz. I was totally out of order. I'm glad my posts were deleted.

It's costing dd, on average, 40 quid a month to be on the pill (GP visit 50-60 every three months, blood tests 50 quid every six months and pill cost of €15 a month) and she's a student with almost no income.
Brings back memories. I can remember when it was the same in England, not sure how the prices compare with inflation but in 1971 I went on the pill and had to have a private prescription £5 lasted 6 months and then 55p a month. Doesn't sound much now but I was on maternity leave and my month started on a Wednesday and DHs payday was Thursday and more than once I went to work with him on the Thursday to get the money to pay for the pill and ended up taking it 12 hrs late. My rent was £5 a week at the time for a nice flat so I suppose that gives some comparison.

I can so remember the thrill of finding out the Brook would give me the pill for free. What a wonderful day that was.

On Newsnight last night there was a feature about the Grenfell Tower fire. A man was explaining how he, his wife and children got out from the 21st floor. His wife was 7 months pregnant and he explained how the doctor told him his wife would be the priority and she survived but the baby didn't. From his explanation it seemed quite clear they weren't asking his opinion.

So what would happen if the baby is saved although the mother has other children and a desperate husband? It was always thought that if the mother was saved she would probably have more children.

It was my first idea. But later I began to doubt is it true every time. Obviously, no.

who's afraid I'm Irish and I remember my friends dad talking about the two Dublin maternity hospitals in the 60's/ 70's - one prioritised mums and the other hospital saw both ' as equal in gods eyes' so would not intervene to save one at the expense of the other. He begged his wife to attend the second one.
The man waned his wife to attend the hospital where her life would be less valued? I.e. they'd pick the baby over her?? And he said it out loud?? Omg

My DH had to make this decision. He chose to go the route with the least risk to me. DS1 is 10 now (and like a stroppy teenager, but he's here)

The basic principle on which we are based considering mom's priority is her ability to have more children. At least, it looked so for me at the first glance. But if not? She can easily get any trauma which may make further deliveries impossible. But a new life will be lost. I am confused who makes a decision in such cases. I will be a mom eventually. So, I want to know, who will make the final decision whose life is more prioritized. While I will not be able to do that while a delivery?