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AIBU?

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Original poster

To wonder who's life would be prioritised, mother or baby?

625 replies

splendidisolation · 26/09/2017 18:05

Just one of those random train of thought questions that popped up in my head.

Imagine this theoretical scenario, a mother is giving birth and the doctor's have to decide whether to save her life or the newborn on its way out.
Ethically, which would they be forced to choose and why?

Imagine the mother's partner or a family member is present. Obviously horrific, but would they be asked to decide? Who makes that decision?

OP posts:
grannytomine · 27/09/2017 17:07

I accept this, granny, but while they perhaps can't do much about the "mad old ladies", surely the church could clamp down on priests and nuns who insist on something which is against their teachings? It is a big old organisation and I suspect it isn't easy. I well remember my grandmother tearing the nuns to bits when I was a child. She was very religious but wouldn't put up with any nonsense. We lived in a poor area, in a large English city. The nuns were making life a misery for families who couldn't afford the full on Holy Communion outfit for girls, you know the mini wedding dresses, veils, gloves, tiaras etc. We were outside the church being lined up to go in and the "poor" girls were being hidden away at the back. Granny walked up to the nuns and told them they didn't know their own religion and that the girls could take Communion if they were in rags and that she was sure The Lord wouldn't want any family getting into debt for such nonsense. It was a wonderful moment for me and many other kids who had suffered at their hands. They were quite literally speechless.

grannytomine · 27/09/2017 17:08

Maryz arguments are not reasoned though. and I suppose yours are?

squishysquirmy · 27/09/2017 17:09

Haven't rtft, but have read much of it and am really confused by the direction its gone in.

From what I have read in this thread, Maryz is pro-choice and wants women in Ireland to be able to access abortion much more freely (correct me if I am wrong Maryz).

I have not seen a single post from her that suggests otherwise, nor have I seen any posts where she implies that women (Irish or otherwise) should be subservient.

It IS dangerous to be taking pills sent over the internet. It may be the best of two bad options for some women (taking a risk or forced birth) but women should never, ever be put in this position in the first place! I think most of us agree on that, surely?

This started over a disagreement on what was most responsible for the death of a woman - medical malpractice or the law. I am not informed enough on the specifics to wade in on that, but I don't think that reaching a different conclusion makes someone anti-choice. I also agree with Maryz that being really accurate about the arguments for a controversial issue like abortion is important - just because the other side lies, lowering ourselves to their level undermines our arguments.

grannytomine · 27/09/2017 17:10

Thanks granny, you are right.

If elendon accuses me of attempting to murder my granny will someone let me know

Will it be your granny or this granny?

Whinesalot · 27/09/2017 17:11

So once the baby is actually born and it is a legal being in its own right, what happens if there is only one doctor in the room and they both develop problems 10 minutes later? Is it still the mother?

Elendon · 27/09/2017 17:13

Elendon, I know this is irrelevant on this thread, but in case anyone is still reading, I posted this on the other thread you didn't read

I did post and read that thread though.

Papafran · 27/09/2017 17:15

So once the baby is actually born and it is a legal being in its own right, what happens if there is only one doctor in the room and they both develop problems 10 minutes later? Is it still the mother?

I would say that is a totally separate issue. Firstly, it is very unlikely that there is only one doctor available. Secondly, it is a matter of medical discretion as to who needs more urgent treatment. Nothing to do with the fact that they are mother and child, because their bodies are no longer connected and the child is no longer dependent on the mother. However, I would probably think the hospital would be negligent if they had insufficient staff on duty.

Elendon · 27/09/2017 17:16

But I'm obviously pro choice Maryz. What seems to be your problem with that?

PurpleDaisies · 27/09/2017 17:17

So once the baby is actually born and it is a legal being in its own right, what happens if there is only one doctor in the room and they both develop problems 10 minutes later? Is it still the mother?

That's now a straight triage situation-you consider the how sick the patients are and decide.

grannytomine · 27/09/2017 17:19

My gran said this happened when my sister was born. It was a home birth. Midwife did something with baby and handed her to gran with instructions while she did what was necessary with mum then went back to baby. Apparently it was close to losing one or both and midwife did the best she could and both were OK. I don't think my gran got over it for quite a while, she said she kept getting hysterical when she thought how close it came. This was in the early 50s.

Elendon · 27/09/2017 17:20

10 minutes later into a birth would have at least two midwives still in.

It takes about five minutes after birth, if you have the injection, to deliver the placenta. The placenta has to be examined. The baby has to have an apgar score. All in all there will be at least two HCP there and a big red button to press if all goes wrong.

grannytomine · 27/09/2017 17:21

Not with a home birth, well not with mine. One midwife and doctor popping in between surgery and home visits.

ILikeThatSong123 · 27/09/2017 17:22

Mother

TheLuminaries · 27/09/2017 17:24

I had home births and like many (most?) women who choose that option (and all women in my mother's generation) a natural second stage. So 2 midwives remain until the placenta is delivered, whoch can take a wee while.

brasty · 27/09/2017 17:26

If you have two ill people in a room, the Dr helps the most ill. Nothing to do with ages or relationship. In any hospital ward, there will be times when one patient desperately needs medical help, and others have to wait for less urgent needs.

lolalola19 · 27/09/2017 17:28

Hopefully the mother - no idea why people are saying the baby Confused

TiramisuQueenoftheFaeries · 27/09/2017 17:35

Elendon I really can't make out what you are on about, or why you are being so weirdly aggressive to Maryz.

Do you really not think it's a problem that an Irish woman who needs an abortion has to be able to lay her hands on €1000 to cover flights and the procedure, and to be able to fly out of the country, perhaps without having anyone she can tell or who can go with her? Or else she has to risk receiving abortion pills without having any guarantees that they will work, or that she will be able to attend hospital for help in the event that she has a complication?

Not to mention that she can actually be prosecuted for taking the pill even if successful. I know directly of a case where the woman procured the pill, lost the baby at home, and not knowing what else to do with it, wrapped it in tissue and put it in a bin. Her flatmate found it and reported her. She was charged and convicted.

Cubtrouble · 27/09/2017 17:43

It is the mother. Not that they wouldn't also be trying to save the baby desperately as well.

What a weird question

Sugarpiehoneyeye · 27/09/2017 17:45

Always the Mother.

BuntyCollocks · 27/09/2017 17:45

I’m a student Midwife and we’ve just covered this. The mother would be saved.

Elendon · 27/09/2017 17:52

Tiramisu That was Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom, and not Ireland. Those living in Northern Ireland, also have to find money as well.

Hope you don't think me nasty for telling you that.

Trust me regarding Maryz. I have lived in Ireland. The morning after pill is available in both countries, it has to by EU law - I would say 35 euro compared to a thousand, is a good bet there. Pills available over the internet are indeed good. Men use pills over the internet all the time for their erections.

OlafLovesAnna · 27/09/2017 17:53

They wouldn't ask anyone, the mother would be the life saved.

ShitOrBust · 27/09/2017 17:54

If its the Republic of Ireland, then the mother will have to bite the dust, I'm afraid. Although things might change next summer.

GetOutOfMYGarden · 27/09/2017 18:01

what happens if there is only one doctor in the room and they both develop problems 10 minutes later?

The MET team gets called, help is shouted for and within seconds you've got people legging it to help. Depending on what support is required and what you can do is what happens in those seconds. If baby needs BLS while mum needs intubating you need to do the BLS because that's what you can actually do then and there.

TiramisuQueenoftheFaeries · 27/09/2017 18:03

Tiramisu That was Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom, and not Ireland. Those living in Northern Ireland, also have to find money as well

I'm fully aware of that, yes, since I have a connection to the case. What difference does that make? That was my point; they might not be labouring under the ROI constitution, but NI women and ROI women have the same shitty choice; have access to a big wad of money 'n' independence, or take your chances with illegal abortion pills. No women should be in that situation, period. That was Maryz's point, which you somehow bizarrely seemed to interpret as her calling women "subservient" because there are women who can't, in your words, run rings around the current laws.

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