To wonder who's life would be prioritised, mother or baby?

[splendidisolation]

Just one of those random train of thought questions that popped up in my head.

Imagine this theoretical scenario, a mother is giving birth and the doctor's have to decide whether to save her life or the newborn on its way out.
Ethically, which would they be forced to choose and why?

Imagine the mother's partner or a family member is present. Obviously horrific, but would they be asked to decide? Who makes that decision?

Elendon - I've reported your posts, because you're clearly on a vendetta against Maryz, and it's not on

I have not given incorrect facts. Why would you say that Maryz?

It's an honest question asked quietly.

Hi all,
We have had a great number of reports about this thread concerning what certainly seems to be a personal animus. We have made a few deletions, and would be really grateful if everyone could try to stick to the subject under discussion from now on. Peace and love and all that.

So Maryz was SH's husband Praveen lying?

I'm not in the least bit frightened of you JamPasty. Report away.

I care about the health of women, in all aspects of their life.

I've reported Elendon as well. This is becoming ridiculous.

I'm not in the least bit frightened of you JamPasty.

Why on earth would you be? Are you sure you're ok?

There is an excellent heartbreaking book about Savita by an irish journalist. It is called Savita and it is an eye opener regarding what is so terribly wrong in Southern Ireland and the rights of the women living there.

I think this is very sad. Elendon and Maryz actually agree on almost everything so you're on the same side!

Maryz, (picking my way through the weird posts to follow the thread of this fascinating thread) can I ask you (and being lazy in not reading the full HSE report myself) but is the protocol for sepsis management in Ireland still that a D&C will not be given until the fetal heartbeat is gone? Or was that a misinterpretation by the Limerick hospital/medics in the first place? After the case, a women's forum in Ireland had several posts by women saying that they had been treated the same just with a better outcome/better monitoring - monitoring temperature/signs of infection to avoid giving a D&C until the heartbeat was gone. I think that was her husband's point which was the management of sepsis would have been irrelevant if she had been given a D&C when she first presented.

I find the fetishisation of maternal sacrifice that is so often espoused after cases like that really creepy. Fair enough for individuals who say they would put their unborn baby's life above their own if they had the choice - I would do different, but respect their position. However, I don't like the pushing of a narrative that a mother reaches peak maternal saintliness by making the "ultimate sacrifice" for her unborn child.

I also wanted to call out squishy's post because I think it is really on point. Like someone else said no one expects fathers to donate a heart. Even outside of the health debate, I think there is an increasing linking of motherhood and self-sacrifice and I don't think it is good for anyone.

You lot who are arguing about that poor woman death should read the book I mention above and then make your own minds up about what went to tragically wrong, I know how I feel, and thank fuck that part of the world will get itself into the 21st century soon! It must have been like living under the bloody tailaban there at times

I would be interested in reading that book as well. I haven't looked into this at all, it would be interesting to read what an Iris journalist has to say.

Is it possible that the hospital were so focused on the foetal heartbeat that they forgot to check the mother's condition? When they should have done the D&C straightaway.

This is something that DH and I actually had to discuss when I became pregnant with DS2. I had very serious complications with DS1. The only way for me to survive was to deliver him. Luckily we were at 40 weeks. We had to discuss what would happen if I became ill again. DH told me that he would tell the doctors to do everything to save me. His reasoning was that DS1 needed a mummy. How could I argue with that?

This is a link to the book on Savita: The Tragedy that shook a Nation

www.amazon.co.uk/Savita-Tragedy-that-shook-nation/dp/1848271832?tag=mumsnetforum-21

The reviews are worth a look too.

I've ordered it, looking forward to reading it. Thanks for the link.

I'd guess the birthing partner would be asked to decide?

I'm with Terry Pratchett on this - or at least on the side of the words he gave Granny Weatherwax. I don't recall the exact words, but the basic thrust of them was "What has he done that's so terrible you would wish a choice like that on him?" When Death turns up at a birth she is midwifing, and leaves a choice, she takes the burden of making it, because that's her job.

Doctors have to make these kind of calls, they are trained professionals for a reason. In seconds they will have to assess which is the most likely to survive and act accordingly. If it is equal likeliness and there is no one in the room who is legally a next of kin or no existing paperwork with arrangements for such situations then I believe it is usually the mother because she is legally a living person already and the baby hasn't been born yet.

I live in Southern Ireland, rural, although from the uk and I was pregnant here around the time of Savita. I did feel pretty vulnerable here, I don't know the specifics of the case however it did not surprise me.

And I do think the Idea of women being sacrificial to their children is part of it. I would not trust the system to put my life above an unborn child. In fact the way pregnant women are treated is totally different, not midwife led, basically in a big room crammed with pregnant women waiting 3-4 hours to be weighed and checked, like cows.

I asked for a scan as I was an older mother and refused, I bought up higher risks of disabilities and refused even a discussion.

I know many health care professionals and catholic values frequently come to the fore above any policies or legalities. From contraception to vaccinations. Many staff would not question a decision either. There is a culture of brushing problems under the carpet. The HSE are a dreadful organisation too, cover ups and bullying.

My mother actually asked this direct question to her doctor when in labour with me. Granted it was a long time ago but the doctor confirmed they would save her and not her unborn baby (me). I was a bit that she told me this as a passing comment years ago.

Also what surprised me was how little the Savita story impacted the nation. It was in the news, then hardly there, no one I knew really wanted to talk about it.

Thank you for posting that link I didn't know how to do that part, Elendon.