To pull my daughter out of tutoring?

[Chairmancow]

Another shitty weekend ruined by trying to get uncooperative Dd (9) to do her homework. She started tutoring for 11 plus 3 weeks ago and we've all had enough already!
She's not able or willing to independently get on with the piles of work she has to complete each week. Consequently we have to stand over her helping her and scolding her when she pisses about. Which Is frequently! We are so frustrated with it all. It's spoiling all our weekends. I've doubts about her ability to work quickly enough to pass it anyway.
Should we quit or keep on?
The comps round here are dire, obviously if they were any good I would never have started all this.
Dh doesn't deal with stress well (mental health problems) and I think we're both feeling under a lot of pressure to not to let her do badly at school.
Advice please!

numerical reasoning

Our DDs had one hour of 11+ tutoring per week during Yr 5. Their tutor gave them roughly 45 minutes of homework which we didn't need to help them with.

They both passed very comfortably thank goodness.

I think your DD is being worked excessively at too young an age.

One of the most useful tools we were taught for 11+ was to learn the alphabet backwards. It really speeds up the pattern stuff, so you barey have to think about it. When I applied to Uni in my 30s, one Uni got all us mature applicants in to do an IQ test; knowing the alphabet backwards shaved seconds off finding answers.

Knowing your tables really well, helps too.
Being able to recognise trick questions - what was the largest island in the Pacific Ocean before Australia was discovered?

Just remembering tons of stuff now from back then, nearly 50 years ago!

Yes, learning alphabet backwards and knowing times tables really well is very useful in that it speeds up answering questions. I don't think the tests assess general knowledge nowadays though..

Knowing your times tables up to at least 13x is incredibly useful. And not just for the 11+.

Spoke to a local 11 plus tutor. She said the kids who come from India and China or who do Kumon often do better as they know their times tables up to 20, and have speed practice.

I don't buy the idea that Bond- style VR and NVR is a true test of aptitude. It just tests aptitude at a particular format of questions which can be learned. Any school worth its salt should be waking up to this nowadays and fortunately most are at least trying to make their entrance exams "tutorproof".

Also it is simply not true that a child who scrapes in to a selective school will necessarily struggle once there. The entrance exams only test maths and English, and possibly VR / NVR which is a nonsense anyway. Once at the school with a wider secondary curriculum, a child may discover that they have a gift for history or art? Maybe you're in the lower maths set, but you get the star part in the school play? A child doesn't have to be brilliant across the board to feel like they are succeeding. They just need time and encouragement to discover their strengths and "niche" and then the opportunities to go for it.

With the CEM my dc hadn't come across much of it.

Then you were using the wrong practice books. While they reserve the right to introdue new styles of questions, they do, mostly follow the patterns of the sample papers.

The CEM test doesn't really do any of these code and trick questions (the Largest island in the Pacific is an example of a question you would NOT find on a typical CEM paper)

The CEM uses Verbal Reasoning mostly as language in use.
Find the synonym/antonym, which is the odd word out etc. Most of the VR people are refering to above is outdated.

Tutoring (by parent or tutor) gives speed and familiarisation. It cannot teach concept understanding.

For example:

Johnny has 87 sweets, they are red, yellow and blue. 23 are red, 45 are blus, how many are yellow? (this is a pretty easy example)

mental maths and practise make this question easy. What you cannot teach is the understanding of HOW you work the question out.

last year I tutored child who struggled with maths. No matter how we practised, how we looked at patterns, basically whatever I did in terms of maths teaching, she would see the question above and be flumoxed as to where to beging. She would probably add the red and blue numbers and give that as an answer.
She could not understand how to work out time from digital to analogue, and a bus timetable terrified her. She could do her times tables amazingly well, and her direct mental maths was good, but she couldn't see the solution to maths problems.

You cannot teach the ability to understand the concept. I think unless you have come across kids like this, you don't realise that the test does at some level test aptitude. Unfortunately, you need to be up to speed and practised to compete at the same level as eveyrone else.

The same child had the ability to write the most incredible stuff. Her spelling etc was average, but her writing was outstanding.
Writing is not tested in the 11+

Steppemum, you are describing my daughter there. Maths is a constant strugggle but I know she would fly with the vocabulary and odd one out stuff and she writes well too. That's why I feel so sad for her that she won't get in because of the maths.
Do you think there would be benefit in getting a tutor just for maths and then doing the other stuff at home?

As well as not testing for creativity, the test also doesn't really assess memory, creativity, musical ability and many other things.

Our tutor insisted our DDs learned their times tables upside down, back to front and inside out. This really increased their speed when doing the NVR questions.

I don't agree that just because a child is strong in VR but weak in NVR means it's unfair they won't likely get a grammar place. Grammar schools look to select children who are strong all rounders. DD1 is at a grammar and is very artistic and very athletic but she is perfectly competent at maths and physics etc. Her friends are the same.

I know what CEM assesses, I said nothing about rote, and I agree with Steppemum

While they reserve the right to introduce new styles of questions, they do, mostly follow the patterns of the sample papers

Although I'd say sample questions rather than papers.

If she's struggling in maths she may be going too fast. Some children just need to slow down and learn all the concepts slowly with lots of repetition.

A 1:1 tutor might help. I think maths tutoring at any level helps wherever she ends up going to school. It will help with GCSE too.

OP - the girl in the example above came to me in year 4 for maths help, which we did and which did help her in class. At the beginning of year 5 mum asked about 11+. I had a very frank conversation with her.
I our area the test is 25% English 25% VR (not the silly codes and stuff) 25% NVR and 25% maths.

as far as we know (although this is not published anywhere) you don't have to pass each section, you have to pass overall (this is not true in every area, in Kent you must pass each section)

I told mum - she will pass English. With practise, she will pass VR. She may even pass both of those very well. I don't know about NVR, she will probably fail maths.
What I can't say is whether overall she will have enough to pass, given that maths is only 25%.

The thing is though, the maths curriculum for the CEM test is the same as the curriculum for school, so any improvement in her maths would also help her in school.
She opted to go for tutoring and see how we went. She worked hard on English (mostly comprehension etc) and VR. She did most of that at home. She used vocab cards to increase her vocab, and tightened up her spelling. She was quick to learn the SPAG rules that she was hazy on and so by the end her marks for English and VR were high.
She was OK at NVR, not amazing but enough to pass. We worked on those areas she struggled with (nets of cubes etc) and I taught her one or two methods that helped. She will pass NVR.

Maths - we worked at this all year. I made sure she was very strong on all the areas she understood and we practised putting that into questions. She eventually got to the point where she could do most 2 step questions (like in my example, 2 calculations to make) as long as the basic maths was straight forward. We abandoned some topics, she never understood ratio, and time. She was good at learning methods, so amazingly got percentages, once she had a method to learn, and the questions aren't complicated.
She never really got the questions which required more advanced concepts. On a good day she would score 40-50% on her maths.

We re-evaluated at each point with mum. We talked about all options. I was very blunt with her, will she cope with the maths at GS? BUT I did think that she would flourish at GS in every other respect, she loves science, naturally fascinated by History, fantastic at English, a natural thirsty for knowledge kid. I encouraged mum to find good options, and there are several good options around.

So last week she took the exam. I have no idea if she passed. In the practise papers we did her total was bordeline.

The only thing I can say is that everything she has learnt feeds into her school work. She proudly told me she had been moved up a maths set, and when her teacher was explaining fractions she felt really confident, because we had worked on that.

She was a kid who loved her sessions with me, and loved doing the homework. She just loved learning/school. I would not have been able to do any of it if she wasn't like that.

Ninon - yes, sample questions.

sorry, each reply of mine seems to be an essay

Our tutor insisted our DDs learned their times tables upside down, back to front and inside out. This really increased their speed when doing the NVR questions.
NVR doesn't need times tables at all. No maths calculating in NVR. The times tables are used for the quick maths element of the paper, and yes, they are very important

Everyone so far has posted to tell you to stop, so I thought I would give you some ideas if you wanted to continue:

1. Ask the tutor to do the homework with her, reduce to one hour per week tutoring and spend they can spend the other hour doing the homework together, so the tutor can go through it with her. Two hours a week is quite excessive at her age anyway, then you don't need to do get into the wrangles afterwards it is all done for the week.

2. If she has the choice to play or do some work she will always choose play right? As she sees time at home as time off to enjoy and get away from school for a bit, completely right, so with this in mind have you thought about taking her away from the home environment and going to a library? That way you can quietly work together

3. I do not agree with the comment that just because she is reluctant therefore she lacks the ability to pass, I know of several incredibly lazy children that were just tired/lazy/couldn't be bothered. They all passed, because they were bright and got on with it in the end, and she could well be the same.

You need to be committed to a solution now, and to the journey of the 11plus because it is a tough road and you are at the beginning. Put into place conditions to help your dd and you might just be surprised at how well it goes for her, I would not give up on her, you need to know you did your best whatever the results are.

If you want to continue I would find a different tutor.

OP I would really put some research in as to the best way to tackle these tests.

If you believe your DD falls in the top 25% then it will be far better for her to go to GS.

Partly because the GS will have a proper critical mass of DC in her ability group.

Partly because the school should be able to deal with the current brutal cuts more easily that a school aiming to offer an education to those in the remaining 75% (Who will require a much broader provision).

Partly because teacher retention is generally better in selective schools.

So no, I wouldn't stop the prep, but I'd probably do it differently.

Sorry steppemum I just assumed they used their times tables in the NVR. Have to say I didn't pay that much attention to what they were working on

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions. I particularly liked the idea of taking her out of the house with me to do some extra work. I think the way forward is some maths tuition which she badly needs anyway whether she sits 11plus or not. I feel we can stretch her vocabulary with regular reading with me and antonym/synonym stuff. NVR and VR we'll work on too maybe a bit nearer the time when I'm ready to make a decision in if she sits the exam.

you can easily find suggested lists of 11+ vocab on-line for free (try 11+ forum for a start)
These words are often slightly old fashioned, so found in more traditional texts.
It is really helpful to use the synonym/antonyms as a way fo learning new words, as kids don't really learn by learning definitions, and the syn/ant thing gives them context.

Other good vocab to look for are words with more than one meaning, often where the change of stress changes the meaning.

eg
lead
refuse

etc.

Personally I think reading is the best way to improve vocab is simply to read.

I'd recommend old children's books like E. Nesbitt, Frances Hodgson Burnett, Richmal Crompton (Just William), because they have wider vocab than modern stuff (Other than Phillip Pullman.)

Also writers such as Susan Cooper, Alan Garner, Ursula leGuin, Penelope Lively, Cynthia Harnett.

I agree about encouraging your DD to read more traditional books. Some of the words my DDs came across during their 11+ prep were quite obscure. Seem to recall 'ebb' and 'steed' (as in horse) threw them at first.

Nino - I don't entirely agree with you. As a child I happily skipped over words I didn't knwo, unless they were crucial to the storyline. Many kids just slide past them, or guess a meaning from context, but wouldn't recognise it again in another context.

better would be to note down those words in a little notebook, and then go back to them later and work out what they mean