so Brexiteers, are you happy to be paying £10 BILLION a YEAR to the EU now?

[ssd]

good grief, thought this was about saving money??

oh and the sovereignty, of course

We are now in a position where a minister can amend law without parliament . Does anyone know how or with how much notice a minister would have to give , if any, that they were doing so ? Also would people be equally happy if the same power was in the hands of another party other than the Conservatives ?

I can answer this one. It's not law yet. Whether MPs will decide to grow backbones and insist on having a say is debatable, before it gets passed into Law. I don't know whether the time scale is specified in the Bill - it ought to be, but this Govt isn't too hot on detail. Would people be happy if it were in another party than the Conservatives? That's an easy one to answer: NO. Just imagine the furore if a Corbyn Government got in and started ripping up Tory legislation left right and centre.

My point about patriotism is not whether one voted leave or remain. I voted remain. The point is that, what is there was a democratic process. Leave won the vote. Patriotism requires that we now all ensure the best for the country is achieve from this outcome. Why would you wish for Theresa May to fail or for us to get a bad deal? Going forward we should all want what's best for the country. Talking the country down, insulting others, wishing for the worse, and wilfully placing obstacles in the government's way is unpatriotic.

How should my patriotism manifest itself? By nodding along with every harebrained proposal that's put forward? How will I be able to tell whether a soft Brexit (for example) is more patriotic than a hard Brexit? Or should I just bend in the wind and 'get behind' whatever is being proposed at a particular time? How can I 'get behind' the country? What exactly should I do to achieve this? Should I change my Facebook profile picture to one of BJ, superimposed with a union flag? Why is it 'patriotic' to blindly follow our government, even if you believe they are intent on political and economic suicide? Is writing a letter to my MP objecting to the Tory powergrab 'placing obstacles' in the government's way? By doing this, am I unpatriotic? Because, personally, I think watching your country go down the pan without comment or criticism is fundamentally unpatriotic.

Democracy can be a terrible thing. Democracy is supposed to be checked by legal principle. Or by principles at all, really.

So is Patriotism voting Tory, or is it supporting whichever party is in power?

@RubMyRhubarb

It seems you’re not aware that, before the referendum, Nigel Farage said that if remain won by a narrow margin that there was every precedent for a 2nd referendum on the same issue:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681

He seems to have forgotten that, since it was leave that won by that narrow margin he was talking about.

Was that suggestion anti-democratic? Or is it only anti-democratic when you think there’s a chance the thing you want may be reversed?

Just curious. I don’t actually want another referendum. I voted remain, but the only way this country can move on from this mess and division is to leave the EU and settle the question of whether it will be a good or bad decision once and for all.

If there are jobs that need filled then that will push wages up and benefit everyone in the UK

Yes. But there aren't people who want to do these seasonal tourist jobs that our city depends on.

People can't afford to rent in our city.

Well then surely rents will come down. If landlords can't find anyone to rent they'll reduce the cost.

Well then surely rents will come down. If landlords can't find anyone to rent they'll reduce the cost

No - people have jobs. But we need more people to come and fill the new jobs that are being formed. But they can't afford the rent as the jobs don't pay enough.

We need more houses. That will help with rents. We need companies to pay more. But we need people as well to do the jobs to help the city grow.

It's such a complex situation.

we need more people to come and fill the new jobs that are being formed. But they can't afford the rent as the jobs don't pay enough

No - we need wages for those jobs to be inflated so British people will do them. Importing cheap labor is the selfish answer and a big reason why we are leaving the EU. Less people in the country = less demand on housing = cheaper rents. Controlling immigration is a virtuous circle.

PS I hear there will be 40,000 ex taxi drivers that will be looking for jobs very soon.

Importing cheap labor is the selfish answer and a big reason why we are leaving the EU.

No importing cheap labour is what governments do because they think short term and don't want to spend the money training people. If we don't import EU citizens then we will just go back to doing what we did before and import Commonwealth citizens.

I look forward to the halcyon post-Brexit days when the scales fall from our government's eyes and they decide to invest in training a home-grown workforce for our health industry and decide to pay a decent, living wage to all those people working in transport, hospitality, retail etc, while embarking on an affordable social house building programme. I genuinely would like to see all of the above. Somehow, I don't believe Brexit will be the thing that will deliver it. Apart from anything, Brexit will cost this country an absolute fortune. (Lawyers must be rubbing their hands with glee). What is needed - if you want a well-trained workforce and decent, affordable housing - is a wide-ranging change of ideology and a government that looks beyond a five year term.

Britain's gift to the world...

People narrowly voted to leave. The leave vote skewed massively older. By my calculations, by 2021 enough more leavers than remainers will have died, that of those still alive, the majority of the country will have voted remain.

It's not ignoring democracy to say, lets disregard the dead, this looks like a shambles, most of us left don't want to do it.

User147blahblahblah - I would be filing that in the ‘clutching at straws’ section.

Has this been posted about Boris Johnson's speech? It originates from the FT, I think.

Zzzzz to gloating OP.

I wish these constantly angry Remainers would buzz off - so full of hate (the new liberal posture!). Maybe they should take a look in the mirror! Gloating that Junken and Merkel have showed their true colours, ripping us off £ .

... as the Eu alliance ripped us off from the beginning.

E.g. VW. Such a luvvley company.

In France, the young want to leave but the older generation wants to stay in the EU. So User, how would your argument work in that case?

Whether narrow or wide the country voted to leave. Democracy does not attach a value to your vote depending on how close you are to the grave. Every vote was as valid as the next. Their equality is independent of race, age, gender, etc.

But with our normal Parliamentary democracy we have elections at least every five years. We don't say, "we voted for 'blah de blah' in 1936 and now we must always do that." But somehow, this advisory Referendum is different - it must be enacted, even if or when it becomes apparent that it's no longer what the country wishes for.

Another: France as a whole is sufficiently pro EU that it's pretty much irrelevant.

I don't think the dead should bind the living. The population of 2016 voted leave so we started the process, if the population in 2021 think it's a bad idea by then (knowing exactly what it means), we should stop it. That's democratic.

Democracy didn't end with the referendum. The country has a right to change its mind (either actively or via demographics!).

Franice is sufficiently pro Euro for now but as the old pass away, it will become more Eurosceptic. So as you say, the decision of the old should not bind the young.

You argument is one for endless referenda and elections. What if a political party gets onto power because of the votes from older voters. What should happen?

Should decisions only be made by the young?

Peregrena, who says it is no longer what the country wants?

This is why we lost the vote. Remainers talk and shout the most and because we were listening to our own voices and choirs, we assumed everyone thought like we do. The silent majority were just that. Silent. The strength of feeling was surprisingly. The highest turnout ever and that should tell you how strongly the silent majority felt.

Don't be misled into thinking Leavers have changed their minds. I've not met any one of them who has.

Remainers keep talking and listening to their own hype. Leavers are quietly looking on. They speak with their votes. The might of their voices are heard through the votes.

Let the country heal and move forward.

We have 'endless elections'. Well, every five years should be the norm now, but Theresa May in her wisdom decided that she would like one two years after the last. If she's not careful and loses her majority totally, she might be forced into another one before the five years are up.

Anotheroneofthese couldn’t have put it better myself.

Exactly why I think you will get the same result if you ran it again.

I didn't pass an opinion as to what the country wanted - I said if or when. What exactly did people vote 'for'? Relatives in the north east said they felt neglected by Westminster, and wished they could have a referendum on independence like Scotland. I don't think that was an opinion on the EU - it was as much to do with lack of investment.

Leavers spoke with their votes in the last GE don't forget. May believed the media that she would get a huge majority and destroy Labour, but it didn't happen. This shouldn't have happened - we heard how older Leave voters were going to vote Conservative for the first time. Maybe they did, but many traditional Labour seats picked up votes, which must have come from somewhere.