about those on the autistic spectrum in mainstream schools?

[OverbearingHouseSitter]

Basically I've read so many threads recently about those on the autistic spectrum being completely let down by teachers and senior staff in schools.

I mean punishing those on the autistic spectrum in incidents when it is entirely inappropriate, and the lack of understanding of some teachers that you cannot use the same behaviour strategies on some children who require a different approach due to SEN.

And then there are times when punishment should not be given at all, such as when a child who is on the autistic spectrum behaving in a way that the teacher doesn't like, yet the teacher not seeming to realise that this behaviour is part of their SEN!

My mother was a teacher and I realise how hard being a teacher is. She got signed off sick with stress... it's a bloody hard job. But AIBU to think that some teachers and school staff- NOT all- seem to be consistently failing those on the autistic spectrum and those with other SEN, whatever these may be?

This is not just from this forum either! There have been instances from people I know I've heard about and with friends kids.

For example, a friends child was recently punished as he did not understand something the teacher said, ie, it was some form of light sarcasm the teacher used, friends DS with SEN did not register this, did what the teacher told the pupils sarcastically not to do and was then mortified and confused when the teacher punished him.

So AIBU?

I also apologise if I have used an language around people with special needs that you do not like/prefer not to use. My friend prefers the term "on the autistic spectrum" opposed to "autistic child" but if I have said anything wrong please tell me!

And your point is noble?

Maybe it is time to start listening to parents and other professionals, instead of disregarding, disrespecting and generally alienating them from having any kind of input into provision. This happens and it means a valuable resource is ignored.

Everyone talks about extra training but many of the mistakes made in SEN provision could be prevented if the above happens. Needs managed well, stop them escalating and averts real crises. A lot (note not all) of what is required are low cost reasonable adjustments.

As for what parents can do. We vote and many of us fight ardently for the correct provision and funding. Yet many (note not all) teachers remain unsupportive.

More Specialist provision? Yes, where appropriate. But significantly more? For more types of need? This just diverts the task out of mainstream. Mainstream might specialise in a narrower range of needs but this just means there will be more children who have needs which fall outside what mainstream provides. These children do not disappear! (Some) Teachers in mainstream might think it is not their problem but reduce the mainstream sector and a larger proportion of teaching jobs will lie within the Specialist sector.

And your point is noble?

My point is that people saying funding isn't the issue may need to reconsider.

I can say that as a teacher my access to TA support has been significantly reduced in recent years and the number of students with IEPs has increased massively. Training can only go so far, and it's impractical at secondary for every single teacher of a student to liaise with all parents so we are reliant on the limited documentation/support provided to us.

And the person who said upthread It is your fault that you are incapable of teaching a class of thirty without managing the needs of all them. is talking complete bollocks. Not all needs are equal, and some children display extremely challenging behaviour regardless of the teacher.

My point is that people saying funding isn't the issue may need to reconsider.

People say this, noble because they have found this to be their experience, sadly.

When my DC was awarded significant additional funding, I thought it would mean they got the provision needed. However, imagine my horror, when I found out that individualised provision still was not forthcoming and the individual funding was been utilised elsewhere. It ended up being somewhat of a millstone. My child's actual progress ended up being downplayed, I expect in order to retain the funding. Either that or staff's prejudice prevented them seeing it.

My DC appeared to have a leap in attainment, once funding was ceased. My DC progressed despite additional funding not because of it. I had to teach at home to fill in the gaps and at least whilst provision was been utilised elsewhere my child gained a great deal of resilience.

I am not the only one to experience this. Unfortunately some children are in desperate need of their individualised funding and provision. Outcomes are not so good when they do not cope without it.

So on a macro level you may be correct. But a large proportion of parents who have managed to gain substantial individual funding for their child still have to fight for the fully funded provision their child is entitled to.

and it's impractical at secondary for every single teacher of a student to liaise with all parents so we are reliant on the limited documentation/support provided to us.

Doing this saves time in the long run. You are missing out on valuable expertise.

pondering I suspect that your story of too much funding is probably an unusual one.

Incidentally, my DS has been on the waiting list for an ASD assessment since Jan 2016. I'm not seeing funding as irrelevant to this.

pondering I suspect that your story of too much funding is probably an unusual one.

It was not too much funding. It could have been utilised constructively.

The whole impact of it not being will probably never fully come to light. My child suffered during illegal exclusions (disguised as a flexible timetable but geared towards teacher's rotas rather than letting them have a beneficial, balanced timetable). The suffering was emotional and could be seen in a degree of delayed physical development. No PE for the 1st year at school. I tried my best but did not have the full expertise or equipment. My DC had less experience physically observing and bouncing off other children, in terms of physical feats. Socially my DC missed out. Other children were in school when my DC was not.

Thankfully my DC recovered from this.

I think that there should be more small special ASD units within schools, with a one staff to two child ratio, 6 or 8 children per unit. There kids can dip in and out of mainstream to suit their capabilities, right through secondary school.

I only think the mainstream plus p/time SNA works for the minority.

The majority need a totally different learning environment, with dedicated sessions of occupational therapy, language therapy and sensory rooms. And I think that secondary should start focusing on independent living and work placements.

That's just my view. My child has ASD and I cannot see mainstream will ever suit him, yet a totally separate special school will deprive him of academic work, and of mixing part time in mainstream.

I've been trying to post on this thread for a couple of days but I keep deleting it.

It is SO hard as a teacher. Believe it or not, none of us want to traumatise a child.

I despair at the blasé attitude of posters on here towards teachers. If a parent of a child with autism posts and says I don't know what to do, they are given sympathy...but a teacher is expected to have the answers instantly, while dealing with over twenty other children! I have never had any useful training on autism. The only bloody thing you're ever told is 'use visuals'. The educational psychologists I have been misfortunate enough to work with are best described as chocolate teapots.

The version of inclusion we have isn't the one which was initially drawn. I have had classes where there are three children with autism and it was absolutely bloody impossible to do the right thing for all three of them. I was ignoring twenty six other children to try and get the three of them doing something productive.

It's not fair on the children who have to try and concentrate while listening to verbal tics and stimming. It's not fair on the children who can't play games because X can't cope with losing. The whole thing is an absolute mess.

My experience is similar to pondering's too, after so many, you name it situations over the years, DS now in mainstream school and in Yr 11 with substantial additional funding via ECHP in place for 6 months. Still waiting for the School to implement it and his teachers to actually read it. So not unusual.

noble - that wait for an assessment isn't unusual either, it took at least that time before DS was diagnosed 8 years ago. I found many teachers didn't understand that you didn't just get an instant one-time appointment where someone just has a quick look, then hands out a diagnosis.

It isn’t a teachers job to teach the nt kids it’s a teachers job to teach WHO EVER walks through the door.

Exactly, all twenty nine or thirty of them. Sometimes one child's needs are so huge you either choose between educating twenty nine or educating one. For example, the child I taught who had 'meltdowns' whenever he was given a task to do. His mum told me that there was nothing she or I could do, he had to work through the explosion and then he'd get on with the task. He did, but why should other children put up with that?

It's not being 'wet' to say 'I want to work in peace'. What would you do with a noise-sensitive child who can't cope with another child's tics? Tell them to suck it up buttercup?

There are regular threads on here from the same posters needing advice and venting about their children's needs. Do you have the same attitude towards them? Or is it only their teachers who should be able to deal perfectly with them plus twenty five other children?

Balfe I agree as a parent. A teacher has to work to the majority, it is impossible and a flawed set up to expect a child who has totally different needs to be given the best education in this way.

For example - My son is very bright so the work would be too simple. And yet he'd not understand your instructions, find it very difficult to sit still, not understand what other children are saying, and find a big class totally overwhelming. He needs very specific learning programmes tailored just for him. The stimming doesn't really come into it, that's just something everyone else has to get used to. But it's just totally the wrong environment for him.

The thing is though expecting the other 26 to cope in a situation like balfes only works if they are all well adjusted, nt dc who all do reasonably well at school and have the ability to zone out and carry on with the work. And that isn't realistic. That 26 could have dc with other sns, dc from troubled backgrounds, mental health problems, kids who will fail their exams and end up on the job scrapheap unless they concentrate every minute etc.

I don't mean that the alternative of ignoring the needs of the 3 with autism is ok either, or a better solution. But clearly in that scenario another alternative is needed to meet the needs of all the dc.

You could allow that child to score or be the judge/umpire (traditional solution). You could allow the child to stop playing before the end. You could allow the child to sit out. You could provide a safe space for the child to regain his composure

Except when the child wants to play. He doesn't want to be the umpire (and god I can see the AIBU thread from here, DS wasn't allowed to join in because he has autism , let's sharpen the pitchforks). He just can't cope when he doesn't win and there's not much point having a safe space because he's not likely to get himself there when he's upset.

You play different types of games where you don't have winners

Exactly! And that's really not a great solution. It's a cop out.

And where did I say that?

There are possibly better solutions out there- raising TA's wages until we can have adequately qualified support staff, smaller class sizes, admissions being organised so that one school doesn't have a disproportionate amount of children with severe needs, the possibility of bases with schools.

But blindly blaming the silly evil teachers doesn't help.

So imagine I have an autistic child who is stressed by noise/disruption and another who stims/rocks. The one who stims comes into class stressed because school is stressful for them. The one who dislikes disruption then struggles.
What's the straightforward solution?

There are scenarios when it isn't practical to divide them into groups of 'playing' and 'not playing'.

e.g. it's fairly common to do a whole class starter with a competition for times tables. It's not feasible to have one group on textbooks while one group are shouting out answers.

So imagine I have an autistic child who is stressed by noise/disruption and another who stims/rocks. The one who stims comes into class stressed because school is stressful for them. The one who dislikes disruption then struggles. What's the straightforward solution?

I don't even need to imagine, I've been in this scenario. Perfectly common.

I'm not imagining either, Balfe, tbh I'm hoping for some practical advice that doesn't ignore that there are 20-odd other kids waiting to be taught some maths.

Ideally there would be resources to run those groups. I as a parent understand my dc might not be the teacher's sole concern. I also can't know whether any other child has SEN so unless my dc says X has them I can't know.
It's incredibly difficult all round.