about those on the autistic spectrum in mainstream schools?

[OverbearingHouseSitter]

Basically I've read so many threads recently about those on the autistic spectrum being completely let down by teachers and senior staff in schools.

I mean punishing those on the autistic spectrum in incidents when it is entirely inappropriate, and the lack of understanding of some teachers that you cannot use the same behaviour strategies on some children who require a different approach due to SEN.

And then there are times when punishment should not be given at all, such as when a child who is on the autistic spectrum behaving in a way that the teacher doesn't like, yet the teacher not seeming to realise that this behaviour is part of their SEN!

My mother was a teacher and I realise how hard being a teacher is. She got signed off sick with stress... it's a bloody hard job. But AIBU to think that some teachers and school staff- NOT all- seem to be consistently failing those on the autistic spectrum and those with other SEN, whatever these may be?

This is not just from this forum either! There have been instances from people I know I've heard about and with friends kids.

For example, a friends child was recently punished as he did not understand something the teacher said, ie, it was some form of light sarcasm the teacher used, friends DS with SEN did not register this, did what the teacher told the pupils sarcastically not to do and was then mortified and confused when the teacher punished him.

So AIBU?

I also apologise if I have used an language around people with special needs that you do not like/prefer not to use. My friend prefers the term "on the autistic spectrum" opposed to "autistic child" but if I have said anything wrong please tell me!

noblegiraffe

When I put that scenario I got slated.

The truth is that you could add another couple of behaviour based SEND pupils to your scenario and you would have a standard class

I've said it before, but I don't think big mainstream classes for most kids with significant additional needs. Teachers cannot possibly do it effectively, the set up,is wrong.

Small units, within mainstream schools, headed by a teacher with special training, and a high staff to pupil ratio. Flexible. With short sessions in mainstream.

As ever @noblegiraffe has hit the nail on the head.

One of my groups has 6 non echp children with SEN needs which all conflict with the other.

Eg one child needs a calm environment, the other makes random noises. One child likes a rigid plan /routine, another requires flexibility to work.

Never mind the 4 different colours of paper I have to print worksheets on. That alone takes 15 minutes!

Yep, but in our experience you also have the same problem in special schools. Certainly it has been a major problem in both of the specialist schools we have experience of. In a tiny school there is only so much juggling of classes that can be done to try and accommodate children with different sensory needs.

What I would like to see is not so much special schools but different kinds of schools. So that children like mine who want quiet and routine (rows in desk kind of thing) can be accomodated in one whilst children who learn best with group learning and inspirational curriculum's can be accomodated in others. Instead we have a one size fits all strategy which might be adequate for most but fails completely some.

Yes I do agree we need a thinktank to explore fresh ideas about how to support children with an ASC. And I also think when we think about costs we should not just be concerned about the educational budget but the real life-long costs (mental health support, social services costs, benefits, loss of parental incomes etc etc) that is a consequence of not supporting children well with an ASC.

The problem with having the different types of settings is that very few children fit nicely into boxes.

Academically DS has a very “spiked” profile excelling in some areas and really struggling in others. He is one that needs quiet and routine but he also has tics and can be very noisy.

Although I can see the logic I don’t think it is really a practical solution.

If you have a child with verbal tics then suck it up and try to de-stress.

This attitude is incredibly unhelpful. Some DCs can't "suck it up". Their needs are every bit as important as the child with verbal tics. I get that parents have to advocate for their child with ASD but teachers have to advocate for 20 -30 children with differing needs. Sometimes something has to give.

As a teacher the best training I had was a family member with severe autism. He had LDs as well and would never have coped in MS but thrived in SS. They taught him life skills and coping strategies and now he lives in sheltered accommodation and copes really well. He has a happy life. I learned a lot from the strategies his teachers used and was able to transfer some of them to my classroom.

The official autism training I received was sometimes very helpful but at other times only useful if I was working as a 1 to 1. No advice as to what to so with the other DCs in the class while supporting the DC with autism.

None of us want to fail DCs with autism, or any other disability, but sometimes we do. More trained TAs would help considerably. Teachers cannot be all things to all children all the time, much as we would like to be. And some teachers are in the wrong job.

Sometimes SS is the right thing, sometimes MS can be but only with the right support in place, it cannot be done on the cheap. Teachers are floundering and unsupported in some schools, to blame them is grossly unfair. Look to the system which is failing many DCs with many diverse disabilities.

Never mind the 4 different colours of paper I have to print worksheets on. That alone takes 15 minutes!

Why is it taking 15minutes? DD is dyslexic, they have her coloured papers ready for her when needed in her classes and she carries her own overlay everywhere.

"they have her coloured papers ready for her when needed in her classes"

Do you think they just magically appear?

"Eg one child needs a calm environment, the other makes random noises. One child likes a rigid plan /routine, another requires flexibility to work."

That happens in special school too and although a special school has more staff it often doesn't have more space. The special school the LA wanted my son to go to had classes of 15 with competing needs, in rooms built for 8 children. The school he is in now never has more than 8 in a class and usually 4 -6 but it is a very expensive placement and children only get it if parents have the time and money to fight the authority or the child has become so aggressive they are unsafe in the LA school. I know people want to think special school is the answer ( it makes it easier to push a child towards the nearest cheapest one) but it sometimes isn't for the child that is being sent there.

I said this before, One:

More Specialist provision? Yes, where appropriate. But significantly more? For more types of need? This just diverts the task out of mainstream. Mainstream might specialise in a narrower range of needs but this just means there will be more children who have needs which fall outside what mainstream provides. These children do not disappear! (Some) Teachers in mainstream might think it is not their problem but reduce the mainstream sector and a larger proportion of teaching jobs will lie within the Specialist sector.

No one responded.

What gets me, is why all these conflicting needs are going on, schools are spending (a lot of time) putting new Year 7s in isolation, with no swift resolution, for having their hair trimmed 'too short' at the back and sides. As per the recent read on here. Not an isolated case either. Prioritisation seems amiss at such schools. Harsh punishments for breaking rules, very vaguely communicated rules, seem to be an increasing phenomenon.

There are miriads of tests. The result of every single one tracked and progress questioned regularly.

Stimming, outbursts etc. All seem to be stress responses. Stress certainly does not improve these behaviours. However I think, no wonder children are stressed. Sanctions are issued for the most minor of misdemeanours. They all go on record and are automatically emailed to parents. If children do have stress responses, this often results in more stress. Parents are called in. Behaviour questioned - action plans for the student to 'sort themselves out' drawn up.

I really think there should be a real priority to take the stress out of the school environment. I don't mean no rules or no tests. Just a more forgiving attitude.

Additional needs, whether catered for in Specialist settings or mainstream will not go away. Yes, Mainstream could specialise in a narrower band of NT needs. That would mean the Specialist settings would grow. Proportionately more teachers would work in Specialist settings than now.

The point is, it is not a matter of Mainstream not being able to cope with additional needs. Mainstream is not coping full stop. Additional needs are a red herring. They will not go away. They are a feature of children being human beings.

I'm sick of children having additional needs being blamed for the problems in education. Children have these needs regardless of funding. It is especially galling, as a parent, when you have jumped through hoops to secure substantial individual funding with detailed plans of action and information and that funding is not utilised on your child. The plans and information going unread.

So, teachers, do not dream of more Specialist provision taking all your problems away. It is a false dream. More Specialist schools will just mean these type of schools become underfunded and you will are likely to teach in them. Start using your expertise to think how education could be better - not just easier.

As I said before parents of children who have SENs are not the enemy. We fight for funding and provision for our children. We protest and vote accordingly in light of cuts. Yes, we might take 'no nonsense' and seem unsympathetic to teacher's complaints but that is because we, sadly, have become 'battle hardened'. We have to be proactive to survive. When we see people who are not, as in ignoring professional reports and not utilising individual funding appropriately, our sympathetic qualities are severely stretched.

Do you think they just magically appear?

Of course not.

But I would wonder why it's taking fifteen minutes to do it. Unless they're reading War & Peace.

Regardless of whether it takes some five or fifteen minutes. These children aren't being difficult. They simply have additional requirements which need meeting.

Yes, we might take 'no nonsense' and seem unsympathetic to teacher's complaints but that is because we, sadly, have become 'battle hardened'

ponderingprobably. Yes. DS once had his fiddle toy confiscated... For fiddling with it... . Contrast that with his current school who gave him something to fiddle with so his arse sat on the chair for more than five minutes at a time.

I think sometimes that people underestimate how very patient parents are when they hear how difficult staff are finding a behaviour that would be supported and dealt with at home without question.

I think the teachers are trying to explain that they have to support and deal with that behaviour while educating 29 other children and possibly dealing with the conflicting behaviours of 3 or 4 other children with different additional needs. What you are able to do as a parent about behaviour does not necessarily simply translate into the classroom situation. There are more children, conflicting needs and the over riding need to spend the precious time educating them, not continually managing behaviour.

I have a ds with asd who I chose to educate privately, in part because I was very clear I wanted him away from some of the beliefs and mindsets I see demonstrated on this thread. One thing which strikes me very forcibly is that this is cast as a problem connected with certain disabilities but actually it's much wider than that. It is about inability/unwillingness to treat children as individuals and accommodate their different behavioural needs and learning styles and I see many, many NT children suffer from this too. The problems for kids with asd are more acute but not different in nature.
I have on occasion attempted to hire people who have been TAs in the state sector to support DS and this has always been a failure. They see the job as one of containment not helping the child to learn. They are given no training, and they don't want it when offered. Being expected to actually improve learning is not what they want to do. It's very sad.

I think the teachers are trying to explain that they have to support and deal with that behaviour while educating 29 other children and possibly dealing with the conflicting behaviours of 3 or 4 other children with different additional needs

I did this, when I taught. I did this when I was forced to volunteer, in order for my DC to be allowed access to the full curriculum. Even though there was a fully funded 1 to 1. I was supposed to be supporting my DC, in a potentially problematic activity, yet I was left to supervise a large group along with my DC. I managed fine. I discovered, from this, the staff had just 'bottled it'. Big time. If they had really being concerned for safety, I would not have been put in a more difficult situation than they were prepared take on themselves. It stood us in good stead, though. It showed how my DC was able to cope and perform admirably.

Jonsnow by the time I have got the paper, set up the photo copier (obviously in a different room to the paper), got it photocopied correctly and remembered to enlarge the page then it takes 15 minutes.

Overlays are good until they get dropped, ripped, broken and forgotten. Unfortunately there's no room in the system for a teacher to forget. We're all obviously useless shitbags who can't be arsed.

As for the special school argument, you would have maximum 15 pupils, I have the 6 pupils described plus 22 others (and plenty of additional needs that aren't official SEN). Where is the line between differentiation and teacher burnout?

The official autism training I received was sometimes very helpful but at other times only useful if I was working as a 1 to 1. No advice as to what to so with the other DCs in the class while supporting the DC with autism.

^^this.

If a teacher has 30 children in a class for 60 minutes that is 2 minutes per child (minus settling in/packing up/ whole class time). Don't forget there will also be another child with ADHD, one that has severe dyslexia, several that massively struggle, the most able to stretch, several whose behaviour is a challenge.

Yanbu to be angry about how DC with SEN are treated in schools but it is the system and the school managements that need blaming for making teaching a nigh on impossible job not the teachers themselves. Having 30 kids in a class isn't an excuse for failing anyone, but teachers are just human beings.

I think on top of this that DC with ASD can find the transition to secondary very very hard. All the movement between lessons/ different teachers/ different children in lessons so support is often needed with stuff outside lessons also.

TheLuminaries. I can well imagine what teachers are juggling, I have 5 children with a beautiful smorgasbord of conflicting needs and have spent time in multiple schools both doing and observing. You are massively underestimateing many of the posters on the thread.

You have 5 children, not 30 and you aren't responsible for their education, just their welfare. It really is not the same.

We're all obviously useless shitbags who can't be arsed.

Where on earth have I said that?

Luminaries I don't think that pondering is disputing the difficulties that teacher's face when accommodating the range of SEN needs within the classroom. Nor does she seem naive enough to assume that the classroom is a similar environment to home.

He/she has only reiterated that whilst many parents have fought tooth and nail to secure the additional funding to make everyone's life in the classroom easier and more productive. Many of the additional tasks and approaches needed to include some dc in mainstream can be implemented by TAs. These TAs are paid for by the additional funding that can come with an ECHP/Statement.

It appears that some Schools aren't utilizing their SEN funding appropriately nor educating/advising their teaching staff that it is essential that they read the IEPs/Statements and ECHPs of their pupils. 'Budget Cuts' and TA redundancy do not extend to the dc with additional SEN funding.

Pondering and I are having the same experience of this, so there must be other examples too, so obviously a problem.

As for the special school argument, you would have maximum 15 pupils, I have the 6 pupils described plus 22 others (and plenty of additional needs that aren't official SEN). Where is the line between differentiation and teacher burnout?

Not if this sector was increased to include every type of SEN. Which some people seem to think the solution is.

What you would get is more segregation, between different types of need. More specialism. Less fluidity and flexibility, as any progress in needs would have to be accommodated at a different type of school.

The Mainstream sector would specialise in catering to a narrow band of NT needs. The class sizes there would probably increase. They would receive less funding. Teachers here would have less training and lower wages. Because, well, NT children are perceived as so much easier to educate.