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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think dd is too young to decide to change gender?

147 replies

CosyLulu · 19/09/2017 17:30

Dd is nearly 15 and for the last 18 months has slowly turned her back on everything 'girly', not that she was ever girly really. She is very drawn to transgender girls who have become boys and does not relate to any female role models at all. She doesn't wear make up and she's been struggling socially for some time as well as being depressed and isolated.

She feels that changing her gender will change everything. I feel that she's too young to make that decision although I will fully support her if that's the decision she eventually makes. I have no issue with transgender people or sexuality at all. What I'm concerned about is that she is at the mercy of so many hormones right now that I don't think she can make a sensible choice.

AIBU though? Will I regret this? Will she hate me for stopping her to begin a process that she firmly believes is the right one for her?

Has anyone been through this with advice to share?

OP posts:
GiantSteps · 20/09/2017 09:06

for the last 18 months has slowly turned her back on everything 'girly', not that she was ever girly really

That was me at 15 in the 1970s. I wore no makeup ever, was on my horse at least 3 hours a day wearing jeans & boots & the rest of my time studying: maths, physics chemistry history (all seen as "boy's subjects at the time). I didn't wear pink on principle, and I was adamant I was never going to get married, have children, or do housework. My sister was a real 'tomboy' - liked to be recognised as a boy, dressed as one, hung out with boys.

We were teenagers, trying to work out how we fitted into the world.

Luckily, we had strong feminist models around us, showing us that however we wanted to dress & whatever we wanted to do was OK. I guess the feminism then is what we'd call "radical feminism" now - but it was just normal: that women could be powerful, and could make their own lives.

I just feel so so sorry for young women today - that they are subjected to such pressure about their bodies, their brains, their social ives - that they aren't told by the world around them that they can just be .

And that being a woman is so awful that they need to become men. In one way, I suppose that's a logical response to the awful #everydaysexism that seems worse now than 40 years ago - worse because it's not so blatant. It's insidious.

But in another way, it's a completely deranged response to a deranged society where we've lost any sense of valuing women for what they are.

GiantSteps · 20/09/2017 09:09

Transing the gays away is progressive now

And this - it's horrific homophobia to suggest it is better for a young woman or man to take synthetic hormones which will make them infertile than for them to be uncertain of their sexuality, and find eventually that they are same-sex attracted.

"Transing away the gay" is so so regressive & hateful.

NettleTea · 20/09/2017 09:10

I was under the impression that gender dysphoria was now NOT considered to be a mental health issue (after activists lobbied for it to be removed from the book) and that counsellors are increasingly be pressurised into only providing affirmative support, rather than questioning, or trying to help the young person to be happy in their own skin. This is after associating questioning therapy with 'conversion therapy' and despite the general 80 odd percent desistance rate.

GiantSteps · 20/09/2017 09:33

Have just read the whole thread, and I'd be cautious about encouraging her to see herself as "non-binary", because it reinforces the idea that she can't be a girl and be who she already is

And this. The problem is in the use of "gender" when people really mean "sex" a lot of the time

Sex = biology
Gender = socially-constructed role imposed (for women often coercively or violently) on the basis of biology, but often with very little to do with the realities of biology

Your DD may just be chafing at the gender [role] she feels she's being pushed into. Particularly if she has some neuro-atypical traits.

"Gender non-binary" suggests that gender is a prescriptive real thing. But it's a socially produced thing, and we can resist it.

Good luck to your DD Flowers and you Flowers Flowers

Just a general observation: on the Today programme this morning, there was a discussion of the shocking stat coming out that a quarter of young women/teenage girls demonstrate symptoms of depression.

I see this as the way that girls/women cope with the awful misogyny and sexism we experience everyday - turn it in on ourselves.

My response to the Today item was to say out loud "We need a good dose of 1970s Women's Lib feminism" - it was radical and noisy and allowed girls & women to be present & themselves - to take up SPACE.

I see so many of my young undergrad women now so afraid to be noisy & take up space.

I hope your DD finds her space.

NettleTea · 20/09/2017 10:08

Hear Hear GiantSteps

busyboysmum · 20/09/2017 10:37

Article in The Times today about Dr Helen Webberley.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/times2/the-doctor-who-helps-kids-to-change-gender-xsw6dxc7n?CMP=Sprkr--Editorial--TheTimesandTheSundayTimes--Magazine--Imageandlink--Statement--Unspecified-_-FBPAGE&linkId=42465208

When I arrive at Dr Helen Webberley’s door it is hard to believe I am at the home of the woman who says she is Britain’s only private doctor to treat transgender children — and who is being investigated by the General Medical Council (GMC) for giving sex-change hormones to a child of 12. I mean, I’m in Abergavenny! This isn’t San Francisco or Bangkok. Inside her comfy cottage Webberley, 48, bustles about making us a nice cup of tea and I admire the photos of her three teenage children.
It’s not what I expected when I read the glowing headlines in a gay newspaper: “Hormones for 12-year-olds. Puberty-blockers without the wait. Trans healthcare available in every town — Helen Webberley has torn up the rule book and started a revolution!” or the less glowing ones in tabloids about a lone doctor offering “sex changes for tweens”.
However, it gives me a moment to say a quiet prayer of thanks that my children have not hated the sex they were born with. To see any of the recent documentaries on transgender children is to see a world of pain. Uniquely, this is a pain on which everyone seems to have an opinion. It aggravates feminists and traditionalists alike, escalating into rage about prisons, toilets and school uniform. It is like Brexit, but with genitals. Maybe in these circumstances I too would be bringing my weeping son or daughter to Abergavenny to circumvent the slowness — in the form of waiting lists and caution — of the NHS. Who knows?
“Who knows?” is the battle here. Webberley is unrepentant. In fact she attacks what she regards as the outmoded treatment that transgender kids experience on the NHS. Out of the 850 transgender people she has treated, about fifty have been under 16. For some she prescribes “puberty-blockers”. However, for a “handful” she has prescribed the sex-change hormones that can compromise future fertility. Her critics are just as sure that they know what’s best for transgender children as she is. Do people ever say to you: “First, do no harm”?
“Yes. Definitely,” she says. “First, do no harm. And doing nothing is doing harm. That’s what people find difficult to get their head around. Doing nothing seems safe — it’s not, because psychologically, suicidally, it causes a lot of harm.”
However, the fact that there are sex-change regretters around is surely enough to introduce doubts, I say. We are living in a period of experimentation, giving a generation of children the option to “switch puberties”. Dr Polly Carmichael, the lead consultant of the Tavistock Clinic in London, the only NHS treatment centre for transgender children, has said: “We don’t, and can’t, know the longer-term outcomes of these decisions.” As a result the Tavistock advocates no sex-change hormones until the age of 16. When you helped this 12-year-old genetic female to go through a male puberty, were there any doubts in your mind?
“That was a very unusual case,” Webberley says. “People reading this may think, ‘Oh my God, she must be giving all 12-year-olds this, how does a 12 year-old-know?’ And for the majority of 12-year-olds it’s completely the wrong thing to do. They’re not ready. For that family and child it was definitely the right time, 99.9 per cent the right time.”
In a way I’m jealous of her conviction, which has made her the hero of the transgender community. There is nothing zany about her. This makes her unlike Dr Norman Spack, an American paediatric endocrinologist at the Boston Children’s Hospital, who is way ahead of Webberley when it comes to confidently prescribing cross-sex hormones for children. Spack wrote in The New York Times that “mastectomies could be done at 14”. When he visited the annual conference of the British charity Mermaids, which supports transgender youths, last year he led the audience in a rendition of “The times, they are a-changin’ . . . there’s a battle outside and it is raging.”
Webberley was for most of her career a normal NHS GP, until in 2014 she set up a private practice website offering, among other things, transgender care. It was an interest of hers after ten years working in sexual health. The next morning her “inbox was full” of heartrending pleas. “I was like, ‘Woah.’ I thought this was a really rare thing.”
No one can be sure of the incidence of childhood gender dysphoria — estimates vary from 1 in 500 children to 1 in 10,000. It’s certainly disproportionate to the headlines it gathers, but still, the Tavistock had 1,400 referrals in 2015, double the number of referrals that it received the previous year, and the numbers are still rising. In 1989, when it first opened its doors to children, there were only two.
“It’s always been there, it’s just now it’s more acceptable,” Webberley says. “The adults will tell you very clearly that this is not a new thing. They knew from the first day they can remember . . . they may self-medicate as so many people do, just buy pills on the internet from Hong Kong, Thailand, India.”
You’ve got to wait until you’re 16. However much it’s killing you
Within six months of setting up her transgender practice — charging £75 to £150 an hour — parents found Webberley.
“I suppose I’ve pushed as many boundaries as a doctor would ever push,” she says. “So, transgender care, unusual, attracts attention. Children, unusual, attracts attention . . . when I started this I didn’t think, ‘Goodness, I’m going to be treating children’ . . . but I suppose it was inevitable.”
The first was a 16-year-old, and Webberley’s reaction was: “Oh God, 16, this is going to challenge me.” Now she says, “16-year-olds are easy-peasy”, but 18 months ago a desperate family contacted her about their 12-year-old. “I thought, ‘Oh, Jesus.’ I just knew it was going to cause controversy.” She was right. This year two consultants complained about her to the GMC. While it investigates she has been told that she should not treat transgender patients without a supervisor. Webberley’s practice has been paused while she finds one.
The child in question had already been prescribed what are known as “puberty-blockers” on the NHS. This is a holding treatment to delay a child’s puberty until the age of 16, when they are deemed better able to make a decision. To many, this is a compromise too far, to others, including the child’s family, it is not nearly enough.
“The thought that anybody at the school might ever find out that he was actually born a girl was hideous for them,” Webberley says. “When they came to see me in the clinic I’d never seen a child struggle so badly. “Mum was saying, ‘He won’t last, my child will not survive to 16.’ ”
Doesn’t she think the Tavistock protocol to wait until 16 for sex-change hormones is reasonable?
“If they asked me tomorrow, ‘Would you come and work in my NHS clinic with this protocol?’ I couldn’t . . . Where does 16 come from? Healthcare is not like that. If you’re 15 and you’re pregnant, you don’t have to wait until 16 to have an abortion. And the doctors won’t go, ‘Come on in, have an abortion!’ They’ll listen to you and they’ll say, ‘Are you sure this is what you want to do because you could have these other options?’ If it’s the safest thing for that young person to have an abortion, she’s allowed it. Not if you’re trans. You’ve got to wait until you’re 16. However much it’s killing you.”
Transgender teenagers often present as a mental-health emergency. In the case of transgender children, time is an enemy. Puberty changes the body in ways that are hard to reverse in adulthood. Webberley has heard several stories of children attempting to cut off penises and breasts. She once saw a 17-year-old female-to-male transgender patient who had spent years unsuccessfully waiting for puberty-blocking treatment — “they didn’t do it in time.” When he undressed “it was just awful, he was covered in self-abuse scars all over his breasts. They upset me, these images . . . going through the wrong puberty is hideous.”
Sure, I say, but for a lot of children puberty itself is hideous.
“It’s tricky. Some people say to me, ‘Teenagers hate puberty’, but they don’t want to turn it off, they just want to get through it. But these children, where it’s the right thing to pause, are the ones where the changes are causing them deep distress because they’re the wrong changes and they want them to stop.”
At present, there are more male to female transgender patients in the adult population. However, that will change — in the child population the ratio is reversed. At the Tavistock their referrals are predominantly female to male, which is also Webberley’s experience among her young patients. Why would there be a different sex ratio in teenagers? She speculates that male-to-female transgender children feel more pressure to hide.
“I’m guessing, but I imagine if you were to look at any school, it’s easier to stand up and say, ‘I feel more like a boy, I’m going to wear trousers’ than it is to say, ‘I feel like a girl and I’ll wear a skirt.’ ”
By contrast, some believe that our society hitting “peak trans” is in fact teenage girls reacting against the expectations of modern womanhood in the age of selfies and online porn.
“But we would hear that,” Webberley says. “The amount of listening we do — we have girls who have been abused by their uncle and then reject every single part of their femininity that’s been abused all those years and say, ‘I want to be a boy instead.’ That’s not gender identity. And girls who don’t feel comfortable with all the fluffy stuff, they carry on as girls, but they don’t wear skirts.
“If it’s like, ‘I got into a new crowd, got a couple of trans friends and so I think I’m going to identify as male,’ it’s no chance [of treatment]. Absolutely no chance, matey. Then you hear the story of somebody who from a really young age has identified as the opposite gender and it’s never changed, the whole family have known it was coming. Those are the people that we would consider. Not the teenager who’s having a fad with a tattoo and a piercing.”
I’ve pushed as many boundaries as a doctor would ever push
What about a future society where gender roles are more fluid, won’t that lessen the need for a medical intervention?
“Gender is a spectrum, but most of us don’t fluctuate very far. Sometimes I might feel a bit more masculine, but I don’t want to take hormones to grow a hairy chin.”
What about if it was easier for men to wear skirts and women to grow a moustache?
“We see people like that anyway. They don’t want hormones, that’s just how they express themselves. These other people . . . they want a massive swap, which feels right. And if it didn’t feel right then they wouldn’t carry on with it, but they do for the rest of their lives. And they will never forget to take their pill.”
But aren’t these children just too young to make life-changing decisions? How do you know that a child who is sure at 12 won’t become unsure at 21? It has happened before.
“Ask these people going through it and for them it’s just as serious as cancer. And by doing nothing, we’re not just saying, ‘Let’s wait.’ Their cancer for them is their puberty and it’s progressing in the wrong way and making changes to their body that they’ll never get back.”
Isn’t she haunted by the idea they may return to her in adulthood and say: “I wish I hadn’t”?
“Nobody wants to do anything as a doctor that makes changes to somebody that they’ll regret later. That’s for anything — breast reductions, sterilisations, lumps that you thought were cancerous, but they weren’t. You never want to make a mistake. So, boy, am I careful. I choose my patients really carefully. And maybe one or two will come back in the future and say, ‘I wish I hadn’t done it.’ Be cautious, but don’t harm 99 just so the cautiousness was OK for the one.”
But, I say, you don’t know that is the proportion, do you? We’re back to what we don’t know.
“I think it is.”

NettleTea · 20/09/2017 11:03

fairplayforwomen.com/wish-therapist-said-medical-transition

Webberly has done a very short online course in order to gain her 'expertise'. I myself have done it and am now fully qualified as a gender expert, affiliated to the RCGP

those suicide statistics - trans or die - have been shown to be highly misleading and badly extrapolated from a very small self-referred group with ongoing mental health problems already. However more recent studies have shown that it is mainly teen girls, as a whole, who are having suicidal thoughts.

fairplayforwomen.com/mermaids-tg-lying-unprofessional

NettleTea · 20/09/2017 11:05

also, to say that a child is offered an abortion and given it, and compare it to potentially irreversable lifelong and sterilising treatment is shocking (in the article above)

MadamMinacious · 20/09/2017 11:39

I would support her in how she feels right now and I would seek out some form of counselling through your GP. I think counselling in general may help her with some of the issues that being a teen brings. It is a confusing time, made worse by hormones and the fact she us struggling socially and is feeling depressed points to more than gender confusion. It is not a time for dramatic decisions. The best thing you can do I think is support her but steer her away from anything that could have long term effects on her health and future (puberty blockers are probably not a good idea at all). She needs your love and support, I think 15 is too young for life changing decisions but it doesn't alter the fact she feels strongly now and thinks she's knows what she wants. There is a high percentage of desisting in those believing they are trans at this young age and many studies which support this. I would allow her to dress as she wants etc. reinforce that being female doesn't mean adhering to 'girly,, feminine stereotypes and most of all understand, support and give her your love even when it is difficult (I know you will do this anyway).

One thing I will say is steer her the hell away from Tumblr, that community is a cesspit of crazy and has form for indoctrination, give her alternative viewpoints about gender for a more balanced view.

MadamMinacious · 20/09/2017 11:54

@ GiantSteps, couldn't agree more with this:

My response to the Today item was to say out loud "We need a good dose of 1970s Women's Lib feminism" - it was radical and noisy and allowed girls & women to be present & themselves - to take up SPACE.

I wish your daughter well OP and I wish that all young women could just be who they are without feeling pushed into what are currently very confined gender roles. She can be herself and enjoy all the things she does and dress however she pleases without feeling so pushed into how she should be (according to society's narrow view).

I wonder how much of this current trend (and it is a trend) of FtM among young women is down to the expectation that they dress in such an ostentatiously 'female' way dictated by our pornified culture? I can hardly blame them for railing against this and other constructed ideas of what it is to be female.

Desiderio · 20/09/2017 15:01

As a 6 year old I decided I was a boy and eschewed everything girly. I still thought this into my mid 20's although I didn't seek to transition but did consider taking testosterone. However the permanent changes put me off.

I'm very pleased I didn't as I came to realise the reason I thought I was a boy was because of stereotypes and being told what I liked wasnt appropriate for girls. Thank god I wasn't a teenager now when any sign of gender non conforming is taken as evidence of being trans. I would have been a prime candidate for being medically transitioned.

I would be careful about therapists as they are currently forced to instantly affirm a child's gender rather than ask the more obvious questions about why they feel that way.

Puberty is a scary time being sexually objectified and in flux. Its no wonder some girls want out. Teenagers are exploring who they are and also love attention and worrying their parents. The trans narrative plays into this - allowing a child special status and attention. However when there is a risk of giving drugs that permanently alter the body and fertility I think it's incredibly dangerous.

In 20 years time we may come to see the trans trend as another medical malpractice like lobotomy or hysteria like in now debunked satanic child sex cults where police ended up asking leading questions of children ending in wrongful accusations and convictions.

If you have read the play the crucible it shows how easily out of hand such ideas can get very quickly. Give your daughter love and let her realise that there are plenty of women out there who are gender non conforming and that she can do whatever she likes, dress how she likes and be a woman.

JessicaEccles · 20/09/2017 15:15

The irony is that my GP wouldn't put me on the pill on 14 - despite painful and disabling periods- because he thought the hormones were harmful Hmm

LuxuryDrinks · 20/09/2017 15:16

I'm another who 'wanted' to be a boy. I didn't, I just liked 'boy' things and hated skirts/ dresses etc. I'm glad the option wasn't open to me to actually become a boy, because I didn't really want that.

A while ago there were lots of tests such as 'do you have a male or female brain?' I always ended up firmly with a 'male' brain.

Except I'm thoroughly female. I'm me with my likes and preferences. Becoming male wouldn't change anything.

I also absolutely didn't want children up until my early to mid twenties. Now my children are amongst the best things that have happened to me and I wouldn't be without them.

I would have an age limit of 24/25 at least to get fully into the 'adult' world and to properly grow up, but I can see why that would not be popular.

JustDanceAddict · 20/09/2017 15:18

Just she's not girly doesn't make her trans. Sounds like she's not happy and thinks things would be better if she presented as male. She would probably benefit from counselling at this point.

GiantSteps · 20/09/2017 16:18

I wish that all young women could just be who they are without feeling pushed into what are currently very confined gender roles. She can be herself and enjoy all the things she does and dress however she pleases without feeling so pushed into how she should be (according to society's narrow view)

Absolutely.

It's really sad that young women still suffer such difficulties squaring being a full human being (with no gender as such) and the coercive versions of femininity we still have.

In the 70s it was harder in some ways, in that we did not have equal pay, you still had to give up some jobs on marriage, very little maternity leave or childcare, no laws against sexual harassment or rape in marriage. And so on.

Maybe that made it easier to rebel somehow - for a very small proportion of women. There was such an awful waste of female talent in those days.

Nowadays, I wonder whether the [inaccurate] view that "Women are equal now" - the so-called post-feminist age - means that young women today don't feel that they can rebel.

That if they find the world difficult as a woman, that it's something wrong with them not the world.

knittingteapot · 21/09/2017 08:22

I've not read the whole thread and don't have any advice as my children are very little at the moment. I would echo earlier comments about finding role models that show it's perfectly fine to be a girl without being girly. There's a model on instagram called Rain Dove who is very androgynous looking and is really pushing the idea that we should all be who we want to be, wear what we want to etc. She's very cool, articulate and might be the kind of person your daughter can look up to and relate to. Crikey, I relate to her and I'm a frumpy 30-something SAHM!

Witchitywoo · 21/09/2017 08:36

I wanted to be male at that age. (About 30ish years ago). I dressed in men's clothes, wore men's boots, didn't wear make up etc. It was a way of dealing with childhood sexual abuse and emotional abuse from DM. Now I'm so glad I'm female. But I wish I'd had a counselor then to talk to, to try and make sense of what was going on in my head. So for me it was a coping mechanism. My first port of call would be to find a good counselor who she can build a good relationship with. If, after exploring all possibilities, she still feels the same then support her unconditionally.

ErrolTheDragon · 21/09/2017 08:42

She can certainly change her 'gender' (or better, just be an individual and sod stereotypes). What she can't do - even if she did start on hormones or worse - is change her sex.

CosyLulu · 21/09/2017 11:13

Thanks so much for all these responses. It's taken me ages to read through them all.

In reply to some people, I have absolutely NO feelings against people who feel compelled to exist in a different gender. My question was only about what age is sensible to be sure of this.

I'm really pleased to have been warned about the dangers of trans websites and chat groups. Not sure how I'm going to pass that onto dd yet because she's in quite a hostile frame of mind at the moment. But I'll find a way.

I'm going to go for a combination of not suppressing her clothes / hair / name choices (I didn't anyway) for now and telling her that we can talk about it all more seriously when she's 18. Then wait and see!

Thanks everyone though I really do appreciate your time.

OP posts:
busyboysmum · 23/09/2017 10:42

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4911962/Is-mother-right-help-6-year-old-change-gender.html

I'm encouraged by all the comments on this article. People are waking up to the madness and speaking out.

busyboysmum · 23/09/2017 11:53

And here's how the Daily Mail wrote this article ...

To think dd is too young to decide to change gender?
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