To think dd is too young to decide to change gender?

[CosyLulu]

Dd is nearly 15 and for the last 18 months has slowly turned her back on everything 'girly', not that she was ever girly really. She is very drawn to transgender girls who have become boys and does not relate to any female role models at all. She doesn't wear make up and she's been struggling socially for some time as well as being depressed and isolated.

She feels that changing her gender will change everything. I feel that she's too young to make that decision although I will fully support her if that's the decision she eventually makes. I have no issue with transgender people or sexuality at all. What I'm concerned about is that she is at the mercy of so many hormones right now that I don't think she can make a sensible choice.

AIBU though? Will I regret this? Will she hate me for stopping her to begin a process that she firmly believes is the right one for her?

Has anyone been through this with advice to share?

This is so helpful, thanks. I didn't know of a link between autism and feeling you are the wrong gender. I think she is aware that she thinks differently to most other people but she just can't go there, it's too confusing for her so she mostly just loses herself in one or other of her great passionate obsessive interests.

I'm really grateful for the warning about transgender websites as well.

CosyLulu if I was 15 now, I'd have been in the place your DD is now in: not drawn at all to "girly" things, and - in my case at least - looking at how boys got to live their lives, and wanting a slice of that freedom. But in my case it was the 70s/80s and I just got to live life as a tomboyish girl, and I have come to reject the notion of "gender identity" completely as a sexist and homophobic construct.

There's a whole discussion to be had about the pressures and enticements adult trans people are putting on teenagers, but all I really want to say here is that yes, 15 is way too young to transition. There have been a significant number of girls and young women who have identified as trans men or non-binary, have taken hormones, bound their breasts, and so on, and who have changed their minds later, but been left with irreversible changes.

She can dress how she wants, love who she wants, live how she wants and pursue all the interests she wants without having to claim she's a boy to do so. If she decides to transition as an adult - well, that's her responsibility. But I would support any child of mine in being whoever they want to be, but would not allow them to go down any route which traps them into one path, as transition does.

"Transing the gays away is progressive now. " This is a horribly, brutally transphobic comment. Not what transitioning does or was ever about. Trans people can be gay, straight, asexual and all colours between.

But hey, mumsnet is transphobia central so no surprise there then

Have just read the whole thread, and I'd be cautious about encouraging her to see herself as "non-binary", because it reinforces the idea that she can't be a girl and be who she already is. And also it doesn't close off the routes to surgery, breast-binding and hormones, as plenty of girls who identify as non-binary still strive to remake their bodies to look "male".

You've got some really good advice here, CosyLulu, so I'll just wish you well & say you sound like a great mum.

YANBU at all. I wouldn't care what she did around gender to navigate her way through the teen years as long as it wasn't permanent or difficult to reverse. Sounds like you have exactly the right balance of support vs protection to me.

I watched a documentary on youtube about a transgender summer camp for girls who want to become boys and some of the quotes on there were horrifying:
One parent: 'When she turned 2 we started noticing that she gravitated towards pink and sparkly things and we thought, well there's something strange about that. So we started to do some research.'
Narrator: 'Maxie's parents finally accepted that they had a transgender child when she was 3' !!!
It showed one of the organisers doing her pre camp shopping and saying something like, 'glitter, tiaras and feather boas are high on the shopping list ... the children enjoy dressing up as princesses and having makeovers.'

It just seemed so much more about gender stereotypes than gender dysphoria and the children were completely defined by their interes t in traditionally feminine things.

It's not the children's fault or the parents' fault imo - if only we could just become a society where everyone could like and do what fitted their personality instead of their 'gender' then so much of this angst could go away.

Thank you Empress! I honestly don't feel like a great mum very often.

I'm going to take some time and read through all the responses in detail this evening but it's been so helpful.

Gender is imposed on us from a young age (if not birth) by society. Things which are deemed "girly" are ascribed such a term, there's nothing inherent about them which are "for girls". Plenty of girls don't wear make up, I myself have stopped doing so recently. I don't consider myself to have a gender but I am very much female.

I think it's terrible increasing numbers of girls are feeling unhappy and that they want to identify as boys because they don't like things society/culture tells them they should because of their sex. This is how pervasive gender is, we're bombarded with it from birth then children are made to feel they're the wrong sex because they don't associate with the gender society has deemed appropriate for their sex. It's so damaging and I think upsetting some like the OP's daughter are being made to feel they don't want to be/aren't girls just because they don't like things which plenty of women and girls don't like. It's so regressive and limiting.

"Transing the gays away is progressive now. " This is a horribly, brutally transphobic comment. Not what transitioning does or was ever about.

It used to be about dysmorphia. Now it's about "male lesbians" calling transphobia when lesbians won't sleep with them.

Why it's included in the LGB community is a mystery to me. It's old school homophobia. Your boy doesn't fit a tight social image? Don't worry, he'll not be gay, he's probably a woman. Most children who experience feelings like the OP's are gay children coming to terms with who they are, Mermaids will tell you it's hormones or die. Read up on Mermaids views on gay people. We're catching up with Iran.

I also think you're clearly a kind and supportive mum CosyLulu and hope your daughter will get through this time and thrive which I'm sure she will with your support.

You've got some really good advice here, CosyLulu, so I'll just wish you well & say you sound like a great mum.

Seconded!

manicinsomniac, that is insane. How can a child that young have any idea what they are going to be?

Dd didn't like anything pink or girly - no interest in princesses etc. but I never once thought it was because she was 'really' a boy, I just thought she was rather sensible as so much of it is horrible. It is only since she's hit puberty that this has become a thing. She knows I have no prejudice at all - my brother's gay, we have many different friends with different sexual persuasions (I sound like my mum!) and it's never been an issue for us.

I worry now because I don't want her to believe that the answer to all her problems will be if she starts being called Dan (or whatever), cuts her hair and has less and less to do with female friends. I worry that doing something like that now will make her more isolated rather than less.

Thank you so much ArcheryAnnie, I feel a bit weepy with those kind comments, especially after so many sleepless nights.

I think I'll go and cook the chilli now.

I also don't think there should be such a thing as "dressing like a boy" or "dressing like a girl". There are girls I know who dress what's been deemed to be a "masculine" way but they're certainly girls (because they're biologically female). Clothing shouldn't be gendered.

Dd didn't like anything pink or girly - no interest in princesses etc.

I was the same as a young child and think it's infuriating toys are so gendered now. Plenty of girls are the same as your daughter but are pushed towards certain toys, as boys are to ones deemed to be for their sex (as was sadly evident on the recent programme on BBC 'No More Boys and Girls').

The same in my opinion should go for clothing and hair length. There's no reason for girls to have long hair or boys not to.

You don't see her as really a boy because it's impossible for a girl to become a boy, and vice versa.

It's a travesty that kids are thinkg because they like short hair and boys stuff that they must be a boy. No, she's a normal girl, always will be this cannot ever change, who at this stage of her life likes stereotypical 'boy' things. That's all.

Good luck op.

I don't agree with surgery or hormone treatment at all unless in cases of inter-sex people. But if adults want to 'change sex' and doctors willing to treat well then that's that. If this makes me transphobic then so be it. And why can't she be a woman and not like girly things.

BFF's DD, aged 16, identifies as non-binary. She says she won't be 'typed' into a gender identity at this point. She is allowed to dress/cut her hair as she wishes but has not picked a male name to use on the days she identifies as male. She has a (male at birth) boyfriend who also identifies as non-binary. Both sets of parents have a 'hands off' policy. They have told them that they will not authorize hormones or surgery, but that at 18 they will fully support them if they wish to physically transition.

I think this is the correct route to go. Support, but no drastic action.

I don't have a gender identity. I am very much female though. Gender is imposed by society, sex is biological. All girls and boys should be free to dress as they wish, cut their hair as they wish, have the interests they wish to, without it meaning they're not "really" female or male.

"Transing the gays away is progressive now. " This is a horribly, brutally transphobic comment. Not what transitioning does or was ever about. Trans people can be gay, straight, asexual and all colours between.

Yes, we all know about those new 'lesbians' with penises and such thanks. Another aspect of the trans agenda being homophobic tbh

But seriously, the reason people see this 'trans-ing kids' stuff as homophobic...is because 80% of kids who question their gender who are left to develop their identities without medication grow up to NOT be trans at all. And most of them simply turn out to be gay. Where when kids/teens are set on the blockers route, 100% of them end up on cross sex hormones and such.

And transactivists actively try to get as many kids as possible onto blockers by throwing around false suicide stats and pressuring parents/kids.

So yes. The trans-agenda is homophobic. And this is before you even get into the 'gender identity trumps sex' rubbish, which makes ALL sexualitities transphobic!

When I was young, I read Enid blyton and Georgina wanted to be George.

I've never been girly, I always wear trousers and my friends are often male, but I'm female.

I worry that gender stereotyping that we get nowadays that seems more extreme than it used (the pink aisles/ girl v boy clothing etc) mean that some children who don't fit the stereotype feel that they are the other gender.

Not in every case, of course, but I can't believe that all these children/ adults have genuinely been born into the wrong body. It's beginning to feel more and more like a 'thing'.

Advances in surgery makes it all too easy now.

I don't need to be a psychiatrist to know that giving a 14 year old girl testosterone is abusive.

• it will make her infertile
• it may lead to uterine and cervical atrophy requiring hysterectomy at a young age, thereby raising her risk of osteoporosis and other massive health issues
• it will cause permanent facial hair growth and larger features, and a deeper voice
• none of this can be reversed

This should NEVER ever be allowed to be done to children under 18. To allow children to make these decisions is abusive. They cannot have the capacity to consent to this.

Just because the NHS has gender clinics doesn't mean the NHS is correct. Dr Helen webberley prescribes cross sex hormones to 12 year old children through Skype consultations after doing a one hour online gender identity course. Mermaids spouts false statistics and encourages suicide of children through irresponsible scare tactics but they advise the NHS. Gender experts are no more than 'self identified experts' because there is no way to be an expert in gender. It's not a science. It has no basis in evidence. Gender experts should be approaching it from the perspective of treating a mental health condition but they are no longer allowed to.

Strange isn't it - anyone at 16 could move to Scotland and legally make a decision to get married - but not about their own gender.

I had forgotten for a moment how narrow minded this forum can be.

What I find odd OP, is the absolutely gendered words you are using to describe your child. You said "she's not girly" "boy haircut" "didn't like princesses".

None of those things should even have a bloody gender. I'm honestly not being mean, but if genders weren't ascribed to inanimate objects and concepts in the first place, then there wouldn't be any "wrong" gender to be!

As the parent of a pre teen with ASD I am both frightened and disgusted by the willingness of the public to ignore the vulnerabilities of people with ASD in this area. Profound ignorance about ASD + uncritical acceptance of trans agenda = risk of serious harm to an already vulnerable population. If that makes me transphobic who cares.