Teaching your children about Egalitarianism, not just Feminism.

[Geminian]

I've just seen a post about a child's T shirt saying Feminism on it, -
although I do see the point and do think it's a lovely idea to promote Feminism - sadly the truth is it will spark up debate with those who are passionate about Feminism (and those who will wonder why on earth you are 'showing off') while you are out shopping which can cause upset while in public and could escalate in front of your children.

My question is, do you really want to put yourself and your children in that situation? And my advice is, why not try "Egalitarianism" instead.

Not many people are aware that there are different types of Feminism as there are different believes but all believe in equality for women, and personally for me, Feminism has been blown out of portion thanks to social media.

@CoteDAzur

15 (maybe only 10) years ago I'd have agreed with you wholeheartedly.

Now, equality with men in many of the areas you mention would be a race to the bottom. "Outlearning and outearning" is how a PP put it.

I remember disliking the snide women who aspire to be the same as men are setting their sights too low slogan when I first saw it. Now I completely agree with it and think MRA (not used as an insult) could learn a lot from 80s and 90s feminists; what was achieved and how it was achieved.

@BeyondNoone

My DH who needed a circumcision in his 40s may disagree. He was in so much pain he needed blood thinners to avoid DVT as he was so immobile for a few weeks.

@BertrandRussell

(well aware it's going off on a tangent)

Have feminists had big campaigns to allow women to get to the front line?

I lurked (didn't post) on a feminist thread recently where the majority of posters referred to WWI and WWII as 'Male Wars'. Their argument was along the lines of 'in a patriarchy, it could only have been male violence ...'.

Do ardent feminists really, really want to fight for the rights of women to die in male wars?

Do women want to use their right to get to the front line?

As, at base level, men and women are physically, chemically and (arguably) mentally different, which one is likely to be better on the front line? If your answer is 'equal' or 'female' then would this apply to other physical activities like boxing or weight lifiting?

"These discussions are happening but it's for men not to expect or demand women to do this for them or to complain when women are not getting on their campaign wagon becuase they are involved in others".

I absolutely agree. But a Men's Rights board would be calling their bluff- "OK- you are so concerned about men's issues. Here is somewhere where you can discuss them, make plans, put your money where your mouths are and show conclusively that Men's Rights is more than a stick to beat women with"

organise more support for for men with mental health issues

I do feel that a properly funded NHS is needed. Mental health has been cut and cut.

The organising needed is a change of Government.

"equality with men in many of the areas you mention would be a race to the bottom. "Outlearning and outearning" is how a PP put it. "

That's a cute slogan.

Otherwise not sure what you mean to argue with that. "Race to the bottom" is completely irrelevant as neither men nor women are aiming to be the more disadvantaged group.

When feminists say we need equality, that doesn't mean we believe men currently have all the rights we should ever have. It means that women are not on equal footing with men in many areas of life (social, professional, recreational) and that is not right.

Achieve equality first, then worry about how better to improve the lives of all people, men and women.

At this stage, "What about the menz?" is nothing but obfuscation.

"organise more support for men with mental health issues"

It might be worth the effort if that cuts the numbers of GF men we get on these boards about women's issues.

Oh, god, Cote. You said "menz"

You do realize that one use of that word completely discredits absolutely anything you have said or will say for ever?

Children need to learn it all surely, as well rounded individual's

that women have equal rights
that all religions must be respected
that people should not be discriminated against because of their race/creed
that we need to support the disabled people in society, encompassing mental and physical
that people may not have the same level of education, and money
that we need to show compassion to everyone
that poverty is still a huge issue in the UK

I mean where do we end really!

I don't single out

Oh and I forgot about

global warming, pollution, waste, recycling and the evils of factory farming

My lucky kids!

although I am a woman. the environment concerns me far more to be honest

My DH who needed a circumcision in his 40s may disagree.

I don't think being against childhood circumcision for religious reasons automatically means you're against all circumcision, including for medical reasons.

@whompoleSaily
I suggest you reread what I wrote :)
(from a mum whose seven year old is potentially facing medical circumcision. Medical being the big word here)

"Oh, god, Cote. You said "menz"
You do realize that one use of that word completely discredits absolutely anything you have said or will say for ever?"

I don't, actually. I'm not a native speaker of English and tend to repeat phrases as I see or hear them. This phrase "what about the menz?" is often repeated on here and I take it to mean a specific kind of whataboutery that details feminist discussion.

I don't know what you find so galling there but I certainly hope that my 10+ years of posting history and all future posts have not automatically been discredited, mostly in advance, because I happened to use a word/spelling you don't like

Cote, Bertrand was being sarcastic.

Sorry Bertrand. That sort of thing sometimes passes over my head.

This phrase "what about the menz?" is often repeated on here and I take it to mean a specific kind of whataboutery that details feminist discussion.

That's more or less exactly what it means. But people have taken issue saying it indicates that feminists are man hating and their zealotry precludes rational thought.

I sometimes say 'ze sex' when I'm talking about it in a particularly man centric context. Doesn't mean I hate sex. Nor does it undermine my sexxxy credentials.

When I look around, I see women dealing with lots of these issues:

The homeless shelter I worked in. Mostly male clients, almost all female staff (except management, natch).

Men's trauma centre near me; the same.

MH services; ditto.

Street nurses, dealing with trench foot, addictions and overdoses; all female.

The people who give out needles, condoms, food and hot drinks to street people; majority women.

The prisons I've volunteered and worked in most of the offenders and guards are male but the social staff, education and health are mostly female (including me)

The argument doesn't seem to be "what about the menz" so much as "why haven't women solved ALL men's problems mostly caused by other men before starting on their own". Well I got tired. Almost 3 decades of mostly male clients wore me out. Especially as the systemic issues that CAUSE the problems are caused by male leadership, male politicians and male priorities.

Funny because I've not seen anyone say women should fix ALL problems other than you. The argument is about wether feminism slogans should be replaced with equality ones.

From some of the posts on this thread the attitude is 'us and them' rather than 'all of us' which is a shame. You'll find changing people's attitudes very difficult if you don't involve them.

Nicely said @MancLife

Manclife - there are many issues which absolutely are 'all of us'. We can discuss those on the human Rights board, or religion or education or wherever seems apt. But there are some issues which are feminist ones.

Would you tell a black person to replace anti-racist slogans with generalised equality ones?

Its not an either/or, which is what the OP seemed to be suggesting.

"From some of the posts on this thread the attitude is 'us and them' rather than 'all of us' which is a shame. You'll find changing people's attitudes very difficult if you don't involve them."
So tell me how you think feminists should involve men?

Would you tell a black person to replace anti-racist slogans with generalised equality ones?
Some people do just that though.
Usually those quite comfortable with the status quo.

Equality and human rights are important.
But feminism only exists because women and girls are oppressed by patriarchy.
And Whataboutism is often a deliberate diversionary tactic used to silence or invalidate feminism.

Stop children having their clitoris hacked off and vagina sewn up

but it's not all children it's girls

"Would you tell a black person to replace anti-racist slogans with generalised equality ones?"

You mean BLM with All Lives Matter?

I wouldn't tell a group of protesters, no. Personal safety reasons. I would in other situations though.

"But feminism only exists because women and girls are oppressed by patriarchy."

I'd believe that if we lived in a country where women weren't better educated than men, didn't earn more and didn't have absolutely equal legal rights. As we don't, I struggle to take anyone who talks about 'the patriarchy' seriously.

So tell me how you think feminists should involve men

When you are putting your political platform together, focus on these three things:

• fully funded NHS
• a massive increase in social housing

• citizens income

These will help both men and women.

These days feminism is a busted flush. On present day feminism's watch we have dicks in women's toilets and rapists in women's prisons. Absurdly supported by a lot of feminists. Great women like Germaine Greer ostracized and abused.

It needs an injection of common sense. Unlike others I do think it is relevant because women do face distinct issues they should be able to discuss and deal with.

You know what, eamonn? I think most of the feminists you'll find on MN would agree with a lot of that. Not that feminism is a busted flush, but that too many younger women have rather lost their way (perhaps in large part due to wanting to be seen as equalists?).