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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Religion

503 replies

crazydil · 12/09/2017 11:48

There have been a few threads in regards to religion and without exception there are always a few posters who cannot help themselves from being disrespectful.

Is it difficult to get a point across without a slight dig? Criticism is part of a healthy discussion but to be so rude about something that is very important to some. ..is it really needed?
I've never felt the need to be rude about anyones belief no matter how strange I find it to be.

So basically aibu in expecting respect in any conversation

OP posts:
StatelessPrincess · 13/09/2017 07:24

And all the Muslim women who talk about how free they are, and the free choice they have made (for example) to cover completely ignores the fact that many other women throughout the world do not have these free choices. I don't think that's fair, everybody knows that some women- either because of where they live or because of their families- don't have choice in what they wear and in other aspects of their lives. But its extremely frustrating to be constantly told that those of us who do chose it aren't making a genuinely free choice. Its insulting and infantilising and it makes women like me extremely defensive. Just because we happily wear hijab that doesn't mean we think its ok for other women to be forced to but I cant agree that we shouldn't wear it to ''show solidarity'' like quite a few people have suggested to me.

BertrandRussell · 13/09/2017 07:57

Well, you aren't making a genuinely free choice, are you? Every choice any one of us ever makes is informed by a million different cultural, societal and religious cues. And covering comes from a deeply misogynist place- however you view it as an individual now.

retreatwhispering · 13/09/2017 08:08

I don't speak to people about my religious beliefs (except coreligionists and anonymously, e.g. here). Don't expect anyone to respect or accept them, not offended by rudeness about them. A bit hurt perhaps, but that's a small price to pay for freedom of thought and expression. If what I believe is true, God doesn't need my protection.

ncdasembarrassed · 13/09/2017 08:10

Unless you are a school child at any state school and have to take part in daily worship.

Unless you want an abortion in NI.

Unless you want to go to the supermarket at 6pm on a Sunday (waves to Scottish MNers who can do this).

Unless you are a woman professional and the other person is a male orthodox Jew who doesn't think you should be working so won't do business with you.

Unless you want a law to be passed in England without the C of E's approval.

Unless you want the morning after pill and the pharmacist won't sell it to you because they don't agree with your beliefs.

That's just in the UK.
*
None of the things you've said are disrespectful to a religious person if you don't want to do it yourself

That's religious organisations not individual worshippers- you wouldn't force a religious person to worship daily, get an abortion, work on their sacred days etc as that's really the difference in terms of the OP

Just let religious people do as they do without mocking it

Religious people aren't expecting you to do as they choose to if you're not religious

The argument is about seperating church and state what you've mentioned and many religious people will agree with that also *

ncdasembarrassed · 13/09/2017 08:11

I always format fail Confused

BertrandRussell · 13/09/2017 08:16

"Religious people aren't expecting you to do as they choose to if you're not religious"

Well, not unless you want to use state schools, have health and social care legislation made without specific input from faith groups or shop on Sundays. To name the first 3 examples that spring to mind..........

ncdasembarrassed · 13/09/2017 08:28

@BertrandRussell kinda my point. That's not individuals

The OP is about respect in disagreeing

No religious person here is making any other person do anything

Simple enough to say I don't like that society has things that I don't want due to religion

Without saying I won't respect you think your faith is reasonable/enjoyable/legitimate and allow you to practice it

sashh · 13/09/2017 08:35

ncdasembarrassed

But it is religious ideas that create that situation for everyone.

Tesco is not a religeous organisation but they cannot open their shops on Sundays for the same hours they do on Saturday.

ALL children in UK schools DO have to pray

No religious person here is making any other person do anything

Yes they are, they force women to travel for abortion and pay for it privately. They force children to pray and all the other things I listed.

BertrandRussell · 13/09/2017 08:50

"No religious person here is making any other person do anything"

Well, I am being made to do things I don't want to because of religion. Do you wash your hands of that?

DioneTheDiabolist · 13/09/2017 09:04

What things are you being made to do Bert?

ErrolTheDragon · 13/09/2017 09:07

No religious person here is making any other person do anything

Collectively they are, unless they are engaged in altering some of the current problems as per sashh's list.

However, I'd rather be constructive than rude, so I would urge any religious people who recognise the unfairness and divisiveness of schools selecting by parental faith (or pretence thereof) to support The Accord Coalition

NearLifeExperience · 13/09/2017 09:08

No religious person here is making any other person do anything

At a nearby, very good comp, my friend's daughter was asked to go home and change in case her clothing offended anyone of another culture. It was a boiling hot day. She was wearing a sleeveless top. Not thin straps: it was wide at the shoulder and not low cut. Perfectly normal summer wear.
This is not a big multicultural city, and there isn't a huge community any sort of religion, either in the school or the town more generally.Anyone offended in school would, in any case, have to walk out of school at the end of the day and see people on the street with no sleeves, shirt skirts etc. Or even less on the nearby beaches.
And yet girls are meant to dress modestly in school so as not to offend any passing minority fanatic.

Thin edge of a very depressing wedge.

Oh, and so yes, your religion does impact on others who have no part in it, and is slowly undoing all the progress on women's rights and equality made over the past decades. Makes me fucking furious.

BertrandRussell · 13/09/2017 09:21

"What things are you being made to do Bert?"

Sorry, Dione. We have engaged in this discussion so often that you know what I am talking about. We disagree. Fair enough.

ballestief · 13/09/2017 09:23

but it amazes me why seemingly intelligent people are so closed minded. Our whole existence is a miracle, we have been created. Glory to God

You're the closed minded one since you have only one explanation for that, and you won't consider any other. How can you possibly call others closed minded?

DioneTheDiabolist · 13/09/2017 09:27

I have no idea what you are being made to do that you don't want to. That's why I asked.

How would you have answered if someone
else had asked "What are you being made to do that you don't want to Bert?"

Original poster
crazydil · 13/09/2017 09:32

Wow im surprised people actually responded.
There was a thread once that statelessprincess started in feminist chat. It was really nice to be able to hold a discussion without any negativity. Lots of posters didnt agree with her, but it wasn't a big deal. You can say I don't agree with a particular belief without mocking and looking down on another person.

I don't agree with Hinduism and my hindu friend doesn't agree with my belief yet surprisingly we can hold a discussion without any snide remarks

OP posts:
Original poster
crazydil · 13/09/2017 09:37

At a nearby, very good comp, my friend's daughter was asked to go home and change in case her clothing offended anyone of another culture.

Did this actually happen? Beyond bizarre.

Its similar to the accusation that muslims will be offended by christmas lights.

Live and let live.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 13/09/2017 09:41

"At a nearby, very good comp, my friend's daughter was asked to go home and change in case her clothing offended anyone of another culture. It was a boiling hot day. She was wearing a sleeveless top. Not thin straps: it was wide at the shoulder and not low cut. Perfectly normal summer wear."

I am prepared to go out on a limb here and say that this did not happen. Most schools who do not have a uniform have a rule about no sleeveless tops.

BertrandRussell · 13/09/2017 09:41

"Its similar to the accusation that muslims will be offended by christmas lights."

Yes, I think it is exactly the same as this Grin

YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/09/2017 09:46

I am prepared to go out on a limb here and say that this did not happen. Most schools who do not have a uniform have a rule about no sleeveless tops

I don't know if this happened or not, but I do know that at a university a friend worked at there was an email (in the late 90s or early 2000s) that asked women staff to be respectful of students and other staff from 'other cultures' and not wear revealing clothing. It was retracted pretty quickly after a few women exploded - but it was still sent.

NearLifeExperience · 13/09/2017 09:46

I am prepared to go out on a limb here and say that this did not happen well according to my friend it did Confused. Whatever.

Why do you suppose most schools have a no sleeveless top rule, then Bertrand?

LaurieFairyCake · 13/09/2017 09:48

Can I just make the point that plenty of (mostly liberal) Christians don't think that God controls the world or deliberately causes hurricanes or suffering. Crops don't fail because of God.

Instead they believe that God gave us free will and we managed to fuck it all up by ourselves with climate change. There really is no scientific debate to be had about this surely? The excessive storms are because of climate change.

Plenty of people don't believe in an interventionist god. Any christians wandering about saying 'it's all in gods plan' need to get a grip.

StatelessPrincess · 13/09/2017 09:49

And covering comes from a deeply misogynist place Not in my opinion Bertrand But lets say it does and I still happily do it, why do you care? How can this possibly affect you to the point that you feel it's fine to insult women who do it?
Also fwiw I was brought up in Britain in very liberal family so I think my choice is as free as it could be.

samG76 · 13/09/2017 09:55

Unless you are a woman professional and the other person is a male orthodox Jew who doesn't think you should be working so won't do business with you

What???? someone's got an overactive imagination. Absolutely no way would that happen. All sorts of reasoned criticisms one can make of the ultra-orthodox, but that isn't one of them....

StatelessPrincess · 13/09/2017 09:57

crazydil I really enjoyed that thread and felt I learned a lot. It was so nice to converse with people who hold different beliefs to me and not feel like I was being attacked or belittled. I agree with your OP and I dont even feel like people need to respect my religion, it's ok to think something's bad or weird etc, but when that something means the world to someone else surely the decent thing is to express disagreement politely.

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