Religion

[crazydil]

There have been a few threads in regards to religion and without exception there are always a few posters who cannot help themselves from being disrespectful.

Is it difficult to get a point across without a slight dig? Criticism is part of a healthy discussion but to be so rude about something that is very important to some. ..is it really needed?
I've never felt the need to be rude about anyones belief no matter how strange I find it to be.

So basically aibu in expecting respect in any conversation

Respect the person, not the religion, I like that
AKA
Love the sinner, hate the sin

For some religious people, saying you think their religion makes no sense is very rude. But it makes no sense to me, why shouldn't I say so?

Well, because, as you have already suggested, it is very rude. I might think that you look like a bag of sh*t today but I'm not going to go far in the world by being unpleasant enough to tell you.

Of course we should try to be respectful of people. That is harder when you are typing anonymously on an Internet forum without the subtleties of the spoken word, to someone you don't know and will never (know you) meet. (We should still try.) It is easier when you have a real life person in front of you, who you are going to interact with for a long time to come.

I do not respect beliefs which I think or know are a load of rubbish. I tolerate them. I accept that in our democratic country people have a right to hold those beliefs.

I also respect that they have a right to try to change my beliefs and vice versa.
There is a time and a place for that. A discussion thread about (a) religion or a social attitude or a philosophical question is probably the place for that.
In other threads it would be inappropriate.

I also think (you are free to disagree!) that the meanings of words like 'respect' 'tolerance' 'phobia' 'ism' etc. are losing/changing their meanings in popular discourse and it can cause misunderstandings.

crazydil: "I've never felt the need to be rude about anyones belief no matter how strange I find it to be."

Can you be 100% certain that's true? Because I've noticed that whenever there's a thread about Jehovah's Witnesses, even religious people feel they're perfectly within their rights to be rude. It doesn't seem to be a universally applicable rule.

I have often felt that there should be a version of Godwin's law that states whenever a thread mentions any religion in any capacity (no matter how tenuous or slight or how innocent the starting post- for example what cakes should I bake for my church coffee morning) soon enough someone will be along to call say anyone religious is an idiot who should be passed fairy tales by now. Yep they have every right to do so if they feel that strongly about it but it doesn't help discussions and ain't going to change anyone minds. Vast majority of the time it seems to be to bait arguements.

Jws are intrusive - go worship but don't go door knocking, especially not with your terrified kids in school hours.

You may have seen the meme going round - god saying that he will read the prayers for the Caribbean when he has finished destroying it. It should be understandable why many of us don't respect belief.

I would fight tooth and nail for your right to believe whatever you like and to practice your beliefs in any way you like as long as you are not trying to prevent others exercising the same rights.
If you say "I'll pray for you" I'd nod and smile politely as there is no need to make an issue. If you ask me what I believe I will tell you I am an aetheist and leave it that. However if you push me to explain more or try to push me to also share YOUR beliefs I'd be a bit more open.
I see christianity, muslim, hinduism, buddhism etc.. in the same box as sun worship, the worship of the old norse gods or in fact the flying spaghetti monster. I see none as any more likely to exist than the other.

Mostly I find I am asked for my views but then people are horrified that I just find the thought of a god of any thought totally implausible. Then they get offended. Their god is so important to them I guess that the thought that anyone would genuinely argue he didn't exist is offensive.

My political beliefs are very important to me; if someone wants to be rude about them or take the piss, that's up to them. No skin off my nose.
It's the special pleading that religions make that annoy me: Blasphemy laws, etc. An omnipresent and omnipotent being can't be up to much if he/she can't take the ribbing.

Plus I've seen threads on here where the religious spout the most ridiculous things; about the formation of the earth, peoples' sexual orientation, how their morality trumps everyone else's. Any mild criticism or questioning can send them into a frenzy of 'how dare you!' meltdowns.

specialsubject: "Jws are intrusive - go worship but don't go door knocking, especially not with your terrified kids in school hours."

But if you're going to have a rule that says we should all be respectful of other people's religious beliefs, why is it OK to make exceptions for one group? We mustn't be rude about Catholics - despite the enormity of their crimes, including sexual abuse of children, neglect of children in mother-and-baby homes to the point of starvation, running schools where nuns and monks savagely beat children, condemning women to a lifetime of childbearing through strict rules on contraception and abortion, forcing women in labour to go through the horrific symphysiotomy procedure, helping to spread Aids through the ban on condoms, maintaing an enormously wealthy institution while people in the world starve - and yet it's apparently OK to attack JWs because they commit the heinous crime of (gasp) being intrusive.

Are you seriously going to try and defend that logic?

If people are using their religion as a justification for their behaviour or expecting others to conform to their religious codes, then they must expect to be robustly challenged. If, for instance, someone says "Same sex marriage should not be allowed for anyone because it's against the word of God" then clearly people have every right to challenge them very bluntly on that.

However, when someone asks a question like "AIBU not to go for coffee any more with someone who goes to my church?" and someone replies "No but YABU to go to church, it's a load of bollocks" then yes, that person is being a massive dickwipe.

Well, because, as you have already suggested, it is very rude. I might think that you look like a bag of sht today but I'm not going to go far in the world by being unpleasant enough to tell you*

If I marched up to them in the street and told them what I thought, sure that's rude. But if they start talking about religion and I give my honest opinion, that isn't rude, even though they might feel it is.
In fact expecting me to listen to their opinion and hold mine back out of "respect" would be incredibly rude...to me!

Any mild criticism or questioning can send them into a frenzy of 'how dare you!' meltdowns.

Absolutely. Especially when pointing out whilst they are entitled to whatever beliefs they choose to hold, they should never be interchangeable with fact. Yet many religious people get quite offended when you have to point out their beliefs are not facts, and should never be referred to as such (especially in the context of important things, such as in our education system or laws).

Because I've noticed that whenever there's a thread about Jehovah's Witnesses, even religious people feel they're perfectly within their rights to be rude

JWs visit my property totally unsolicited and bray on my door. Pretty darn rude

They "bray"? Goodness.

JWs often knock on my door. I find it annoying, but they are always polite to me and I am always polite back.

If people of faith kept out of my life them I would be perfectly happy to live and let live. Unfortunately they don't.

Yeah...I respect all people (unless they give me a reason not to) but I refuse to respect their religious beliefs, as I personally feel that they are beyond daft.

Criticism is part of a healthy discussion but to be so rude about something that is very important to some. ..is it really needed?

Why should religion get a free pass?

Some people feel strongly about wearing fur, eating meat, corporal punishment of children.

And for some people your faith can be really insulting, if someone says they will pray for me I think of Aron Ra and his 'letter to santa.

short account here with link to full account:

"I told [a minister] to imagine that he has to find a solution to a very troubling issue that has he has to resolve immediately somehow or face terrible pending consequences. Now imagine that a four year-old child tells you that she’ll write to Santa to help you out. Even if you know that she really believes that, would that or could that be of any comfort in that situation? If not, then imagine how much worse it would be when that four year-old child is a forty year-old man saying essentially the same thing. If you say you’ll pray for me, you might as well say that you’ll write a letter to fucking Santa for all the good that would do. And that is how I will react."

'www.patheos.com/blogs/reasonadvocates/2016/07/02/meeting-the-chaplains-at-the-childrens-hospital/

Dollydaydream, yes, agreed, it's all about context.

If, for example, Jacob Rees-Mogg wants to force women to give birth to their rapists' babies and bar same sex couples from marrying because he is a Catholic, it's pretty reasonable to criticise him on that basis. If you want to impose your religious belief on other people (which he regularly votes to do) then people are clearly entitled to criticise that belief.

But some people do just feel like they have to jump into ANY passing mention of religion with a load of pointless spite and make sweeping assumptions about religious people. I'm an atheist but none of my Christian, Jewish or Muslim friends are bigots or idiots and I don't treat them as if they were, just as they don't treat me negatively for being an atheist.

I used the phrase 'invisible friend ' on another thread this morning- but that is what your religious deity is to me. I don't see why I should have to respect something I consider utter bollocks tbh; I would call you out for it on any other subject, so why should religion be special???

JWs often knock on my door. I find it annoying, but they are always polite to me and I am always polite back

I live in a "no cold calling" area. Ignoring that is the height of rudeness. They've already been impolite by knocking.

They get a "not interested" and a door slam

Religion deserves to be mocked and questioned and torn apart and chastised.

The people who believe in it deserve to be treated with derision and as less intelligent than others as, by declaring themselves religious, they've proven themselves to be struggling with the concept of science, equality and logic.

I haven't RTFT but the OPs assumption seems to be (correct me if I am wrong) that people who disagree with the religious belief in question are the ones being rude. In fact, I've seen people defending religious views being equally, if not more rude to those questioning.

I don't have any religious beliefs and so long as other people's beliefs don't impact me, I don't care what they worship but often wonder why others don't see through the fairy stories and understand the science.

A little tolerance and some good manners go an awful long way in this world. I often hear Religion being blamed for encouraging intolerance, and yet on MN there is often intolerance and rudeness displayed towards the idea anyone having a faith, its a shame really.

eg shirtyQwerty comment.