To judge this woman?

[moralberyll]

Leaving the local maternity unit today and a heavily pregnant woman who is obviously a patient as she was wearing a dressing gown, slippers and pyjamas was standing right near the doorway smoking a cigarette, there is a big sign up saying 'no smoking on campus'. Aibu to judge her that she is not only putting her own baby at risk but she wants to put other people's baby's at risk from secondhand smoke as well? I would definitely have said something if i were leaving the unit with my newborn baby!

wouldn't you say pregnant women should be prevented from living their normal lives lest it cause the fetus to develop in some way other than ideal
If living 'normal' lives means continuing to indulge in an activity that is proven to be harmful to the child you are responsible for - then yes, I guess many of us as saying that it is wrong.
That isn't scrapping women's rights in the hysterical way you present your argument - it's highlighting the responsibility a woman has to care for her child's health, it's acknowledging the fact that the price the mother pays for denying herself her cigarette habit is a much lower price to be paid than that price the child will pay if she continuous to indulge her habit.
Ideally a woman would shed the habit before getting pregnant - failing that she should certainly shed it when she actually is.
People holding views opposite to yours aren't downtrodden women - they are just realising that 'woman's rights' doesn't exist by denying the rights of others - including developing children.

"Should be illegal to smoke whilst pregnant, enforceable by a fine and mandatory attendance at a stop smoking clinic. "

Given how hard fought-for the right to terminate (not merely mildly poison) the unborn child was, I think you're going to have an uphill struggle with this one.

Where's JRM when we need him?

I think you ought to trust pregnant women, as adults, to think about their own lives and circumstances and calculate risks appropriately for themselves and their unborn babies.

By all means educate everyone about the damage smoking in pregnancy can do. Supporting women to give up is of course a good thing.

Castigating individuals is pointless, frankly unpleasant, and assumes you know everything about them.

"Should be illegal to smoke whilst pregnant, enforceable by a fine and mandatory attendance at a stop smoking clinic. "

Oh come on, are you sure that's draconian enough? Why not lock them up in a concentration camp for good measure. That way you can control everything they do whilst they incubate the next generation, not just control their smoking.

Ffs

Well if they're going to turn the whole campus non-smoking, that's what you get. Our hospital has done the same - the out of the way fag shelter has had the bin removed and been turned into a vape shelter. So people who don't want to/can't leave the campus just stand wherever and drop their dog-ends on the ground. My brother and I camped out behind a van like a couple of naughty school kids.

"If living 'normal' lives means continuing to indulge in an activity that is proven to be harmful to the child you are responsible for - then yes, I guess many of us as saying that it is wrong."

As I said before and you avoided answering: Such as walking down a busy street (= inhaling toxic exhaust fumes, proven harmful), practicing a sport such as running, skiing, or any kind of sport really (= danger of falling, danger of premature birth), any kind of sustained daily stress such as from stressful high-power jobs (= increased stress hormone cortisol, proven harmful) etc.

The point which you have surprisingly missed is that once you start telling women they can't do anything that can affect the baby in an unfavourable way, you will have to face the fact that many of our daily activities carry some sort of risk, from what we eat to how we live and work.

"That isn't scrapping women's rights"

It is, actually. See above.

"in the hysterical way you present your argument"

LOL. Do please point out where exactly you see symptoms of this hysteria in my previous post.

Women have been called "hysterical" throughout history to silence women who dare speak their mind. It's always women who are hysterical in debate, never men You really should take a look at how you view women, and not just re our rights.

"'woman's rights' doesn't exist by denying the rights of others - including developing children"

It does, actually, since the fetus is NOT a "developing child" and DOESN'T have any rights. None whatsoever. Zero. Zip. Nada. Any "rights" you think the fetus might have to conflict with the pregnant women's rights are merely a figment of your imagination.

I think you ought to trust pregnant women, as adults, to think about their own lives and circumstances and calculate risks appropriately for themselves and their unborn babies

Perhaps they could behave like adults.

What a load of sanctimonious tosh. You know perfectly well almost nobody would want criminal or punitive sanctions but to pretend smoking whilst pregnant was some sort of carefully thought out decision is nonsense.

Well 'almost nobody' isn't right is it since 3 posts in the last ten have actually said that.

I don't see why saying you should trust women to make their own decisions is sanctimonious. I think saying they should 'behave like adults' is simplistic bollocks. Like adults never make any bad decisions.

And 'adults' never make any bad decisions eh? What I meant was you can give people information to make their own decisions but you shouldn't presume you know enough about them to make that decision for them

"11/09/2017 20:01 greendale17

YANBU- I don't care what her circumstances are. There is NO reason that would satisfy me."

The mind boggles at this post. Aside from the arrogant expectation that anyone would need to satisfy you, what if her baby had died? Maybe she was waiting to go in and labour. People aren't always at maternity wards for happy reasons

I worked at a cigarette factory for five years when I left school, they were wonderful employers, we had free cigarettes and smoked at our desk.Ii left to go travelling but people I know who stayed have very good pensions, and the company now invests in getting south america to smoke to fund those pensions..it all seems crazy to me now but people evolve at different rates and only take on board what suits them...hope that's clear as mud lol

I don't see why saying you should trust women to make their own decisions is sanctimonious

Well clearly you can't trust women to make a good drcision if the decision is to smoke whilst patronising. It is sanctimonious tosh to pretend this "decision" was thought out in the way you suggest.

Smoking cuts off the oxygen supply to the foetus with every puff. It's a drug like any other. Horrible start in life to be starved of oxygen, experience pain and be born with addiction and withdrawal symptoms due to your mother smoking. Very selfish choice, as it's never done in the interests of the baby. Everyone knows it's harmful in pregnancy - it even says so on the packet. Compassion for the women who smoked upon news of the death of their baby, as may be the case here, otherwise indefensible.

I don't care what her circumstances are. There is NO reason that would satisfy me

An acquaintance of mine was a heroin addict when she fell pregnant. She went to an addiction research centre and conscientiously followed their instructions so that she would be heroin free when the baby was born. However she did keep on smoking tobacco as it was very stressful.

I smoked because I didn't want to pack in. It was not at all unusual among my peer group to continue to smoke while pregnant. This was over a decade ago.

Smoking in public while pregnant now is such a taboo I cannot imagine why anybody would want to risk it outside a hospital unless they are in quite a bad place emotionally.

What is there to risk? Do you think anyone on here would do anything more than tut and inwardly judge? I wouldn't. I would not give any visible sign of what I was thinking.

I said the last time this was discussed I would assume that a woman who is heavily pregnant and smoking is quite likely also to react aggressively if she thought someone was judging her.

Hospitals get enough shit for selling unhealthy food, if they had smoking areas in hospitals now there'd be hell to pay ("you're encouraging smoking! the NHS is underfunded enough without hospitals tacitly allowing a habit which costs it xxxx per year etc etc")

It's a non smoking campus. So you don't smoke. You don't get to pick and choose which rules apply to you and which don't (and no, "but I really, really want a fag" is not a reason that makes you more special than everyone else).

What is there to risk?

Breaking social norms. I mean do I really have to explain this?

It's a non smoking campus. So you don't smoke. You don't get to pick and choose which rules apply to you and which don't

I go back and forth on this as most people don't choose to be in a hospital. One thing I am absolutely disgusted by is the decision to make secure mental health units non-smoking even for patients who are detained.

One thing I am absolutely disgusted by is the decision to make secure mental health units non-smoking even for patients who are detained.

Why though? Any health related institution which allows smoking will get no end of complaints about it - how can they actually justify it when people ask why they're allowing something with known health risks to themselves and others? I don't really think it's a choice they can make. Smoking isn't a protected characteristic or something covered by human rights laws. Nowhere has to allow it if they don't want to (or if it would cause them more trouble than it was worth).

What is there to risk?

Breaking social norms. I mean do I really have to explain this?

And what consequence will result?

Other than being inwardly tutted at by the sort of poster on here whose opinion you probably don't give tuppence for- what exactly do you think is going to happen?



One thing I am absolutely disgusted by is the decision to make secure mental health units non-smoking even for patients who are detained

It is unacceptable that other inmates and staff should have to put up with other people's smoke.

And what consequence will result?

I dunno Lass, it's one of lifes great mysteries but we all behave this way, some to a greater extent than others.

If you are really interested (as opposed to being obtuse) I suggest you read the book "Irrationality: The Enemy Within" which has a really interesting (and terrifying) chapter on conformity. It's been a while since I read it but iirc the most convincing argument is that it is an evolutionary thing.

It is unacceptable that other inmates and staff should have to put up with other people's smoke

Inmates? Really? I think the word you are looking for is patients.

The majority on mn seem to want to fight to the death for a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy to term, if circumstances dictate. There must be a good reason, we mustn't judge the woman and so on.

A pregnant woman smoking a cigarette though, where we have no idea of what'a going on in the woman's life, and people are frothing at the mouth.

Cote - I haven't avoided answering - I simply thought the things you were linking as 'normal risks' were not really comparable. Some were necessary evils and had to be done to earn your income or simply to get to work e.g. Crossing a busy road, doing a stressful job. Others had benefits like getting fit e.g. Sport.
Smoking has no known benefits.

However we will never agree - I believe if you choose to get pregnant you take on responsibility for that developing child (a foetus is going to be a human child - not a table or chair, so let's not pretend it's only a child when you push it out). Your apparently dispassionate dismissal of that developing child as a 'nothing' without any rights is frankly scary.

If you don't want to care for a developing child - don't get pregnant. It's that simple really.