To think if a boy hits my daughter then yes it is different to if a girl does

[ouchthathurtsabit]

Preparing to be flamed as this is a controversial issue.

I'm a mum of a girl and 2 boys. My daughter came home with a red mark on her face saying that a boy- known for hurting others- had punched her in the face because she had gone in front of him in the queue. The boy was spoken to and it was dealt with. The children are 8 and in year 3.

So I spoke to the teacher and said I was glad it was dealt with and that I was sure my daughter would be fine but it would probably be helpful for this boy to know that it's unacceptable to hurt or hit anyone but that hitting a girl in the face is really not acceptable.

The teacher then had a massive rant at me saying that there is absolutely no difference and that's a very dangerous thing to be teaching children and it would not be an appropriate thing to say in school.

Whist I do understand what she was tryouts g to say, I do try and explain to my boys that In our society, no matter what age you are, if you hit a female then it is completely unacceptable and that no matter what a girl does or says to you then if you respond with physical violence then it's not acceptable. Males are generally bigger and stronger. Am I completely wrong in thinking at 8 years old this could be mentioned? Because I don't know! I know if one of my boys hit a girl in the face I would be a tiny bit more mortified than if it was a girl

Also, for those of you saying we won't get equality by treating girls as if they are physically weaker (read lesser as physical strength by that reasoning makes you 'better' let me ask you this;

Do you look at disabled people as lesser and undeserving of equality?

What about babies? , the elderly? people with serious illness? Are they not 'equal' in terms of rights?

I am hoping most of you would agree that of course, all people are equal and equality is achieved by recognising differences and making adjustments for physical limitations.

If it is considered reasonable to do this for everyone else why is it somehow preventing equality for girls when we do it for them?

I love your post of 09.03, Streetface. This conflation of physical prowess with value makes me very uncomfortable.

Saying that we will somehow lessen women's status by acknowledging their relative vulnerability sends shivers down my spine.

In my experience, apart from being a child, I have been at my most vulnerable when pregnant and post partum. I was effectively disabled for much of my pregnancy, I was very tired and weak, I was extremely easy to push over by mistake even just by bustling past me a little carelessly, I really needed to sit down often and I struggled to get through a normal day, physically. I was like this twice; some women will do this many times throughout much of their adulthood.

I noticed that most women were very considerate of my blatantly flaky condition, and some men. Some men, however, considered my weakness an advantage to them - I have been pushed out of the way by men heading for the last couple of seats on the tube for instance, while obviously pregnant and limping.

I completely reject the notion that in order for women to be equally as worthy of respect as men, we have to pretend to be as physically able to hold our own. Pregnancy may seem an extreme example but actually my pelvis, years on, is still not fully stable and I am still really easy to push around.

This is hardly some weird niche condition I have. It was SPD.

Some men are disabled, yes; some have health conditions. so don't bother to rush to point that out because I KNOW

Basically the way the pushy men pushed past me, often physically displacing me, was treating me with the tolerance of low level physical pushing = violence that men display to each other. they just SHOULD NOT drag women into it and society should not tolerate them thinking "it's all the same".

I would be interested to know, of the various posters on this thread, who actually has experience of physically controlling / violent men.

NRTHT so apologies if this has already been answered but why did your dd think it was ok to cut infront of a boy.

Did she think ladies first.

Was she punished for queue jumping?

Making allowances for actual disabilities or actual differences in strength is right and proper. Dismissing the whole female sex as weaker is not, even if statistically women are weaker than men. The example in the OP is a case in point (and yes, I know the fact that they were children makes this much more likely). There is no reason that an 8 year-old girl should necessarily need more protection than an 8 year-old boy.

At a time when many people are hopefully getting better at accepting differences and not assuming that women have to be a certain way in order to be considered 'proper women' and men ditto, I'd hope that sweeping statements assigning characteristics to all of a massive group of diverse people should be reconsidered.

Absolutely AntiGrinch. I am sorry to hear of your experiences.

The posters who keep saying "telling boys not to hit girls is telling them it's ok to hit boys" are massively oversimplifying the issue. As if children's behavior can be decided by a single statement.

Your post demonstrates one of the many ways this happens.

Sorry, I am missing a line there! It meant to say," the things we say to our children are in social context."

No Eolian there isn't but that isn't the point. It was about the validity in teaching a boy that hitting a girl has different connotations that if it had been a boy because of the wider societal context in which it occurs and acknowledging the power imbalances in the adult world which he is growing up to be a part of.

streetface

That argument won't hold much clout with some posters Streetface, because apparently there is no power imbalance...dv is apparently 60/40..........🤔

Yes I saw that Walkingdead. I took the view that some things are not worth the argument. Like the flat earth society, moon landing conspiracy and antivaxxers. It's only worth engaging in rational debate otherwise it's a waste of energy.

streetface

Yes you're right....note to self.....do not engage with the irrational.........

Walkingdead11

I will take your advice and not engage with the "irrational".

Bony

I'm sure there's an MRA site you could join.........tata........

Walkingdead11

Its alright, I'm good right here.

It was interesting until the name calling started.

While i doubt the figure is 40% no way in hell is the firgure as low as 3% or 9% i have known to many male victims of DV (no i dont just mean female to male violence but also same sex violence).

Its most likely closer to 20% or at a push 30% but its seriously disintenous to suggest its so low as 3% so bearly worth mentioning....

My 9 yr old dd came out of school Thursday with a black eye and a very red swollen face cause some boy in her class thought it was OK to push her around.. Teacher was there when she told me and he said that the boy said sorry ect ect.. I was understandably not exactly happy about it my dd didn't hit him back but she did try push him away so I told her next time the lil fecker laid a hand on her to hammer him into next week.... Teacher overheard me saying it and just smiled.... My child does not go to school to be beaten up

No one is suggesting it's as low as 3% but that's not the issue. The issue is that it us women who suffer dv disproportionately to men and that shoukd not be diluted by some to win their argument. Of those dv figures for male victims a proportion of them will be abuse from same sex partners. Research has shown that the types of dv that males suffer is different from that of females and that it does not follow the same level of violence and intimidation or frequency of female victims. It is very dangerous to women everywhere to try and suggest that dv is the same for men as it is for women, it is not. Just as it is not the case for sexual assault, rape and harassment......it is primarily women and girls who suffer these issues.

It is very dangerous to women everywhere to try and suggest that dv is the same for men as it is for women

It is also quite nasty to diminish the experiences that posters have had on this thread of women on men DV as some posters have done.

A lot of people die after just one punch.

A 58 year old man was killed by one punch literally a week ago after a 27 year old youth just punched him for being in the way.

Male/female it's wrong.

Worriedmum the 2-3% figure represents domestic abuse where a man is the victim and the female the perpetrator.

I have worked in the field my entire working and academic life and I can tell you that same sex violence is common. Many men do experience violence from their male partners.

Women who have killed or seriously injured their male partners are rare and in the majority of those cases, there has been an ongoing pattern of abuse where the male has been the perpetrator and women have fought back after years of abuse.

Incidents where a man has been a non violent victim where the woman has used physical abuse to control and dominate her husband are vanishingly rare.

Where it does occur, it is very often reported by the man's family members to our services. Much more so than if the victim is female.

Around 700 women are murdered every year by men, largely when a woman tries to leave a relationship. The statistics for men murdered at the hands of women shows less than 2% of the amount of women murdered by men. They are the facts and are easily verifiable across a very wide range of sources.

Thank goodness for the sanity ad expertise of posters here such s Streetfac,e, PigletwasPoohsfriend, walkingdead11 and more who are rightly linking a boy of any age hitting a girl with later dv and other forms of violence and sexual harassment against women. Of course it needs setting in a context that rejects hitting anyone else at all but the difference is a real one and is not undermined by saying some dv is female on male. Look up the figures of women murdered by their male partners or ex-partners.

My 9 yr old dd came out of school Thursday with a black eye and a very red swollen face cause some boy in her class thought it was OK to push her around.. Teacher was there when she told me and he said that the boy said sorry ect ect.. I was understandably not exactly happy about it my dd didn't hit him back but she did try push him away so I told her next time the lil fecker laid a hand on her to hammer him into next week.... Teacher overheard me saying it and just smiled.... My child does not go to school to be beaten up

I'm sorry that this happened to your DD. She should be able to defend herself if this happens again. The same way my son should be able to defend himself if a anyone including a girl gives him a black eye. None of our children go to school to be beaten up.

Exactly and NO ONE has diminished the effects of dv on men....NO ONE, we have just illuminated the reality of dv, in that it is primarily women and children who are the victims. It is disingenuous and downright dangerous to suggest otherwise.

To the people saying it is worse.

Scenario 1 - DD steals a toy from DS, DS hits her

Scenario 2 - DS steals a toy from DD, DD hits him

Are people saying Scenario 1 is worse? At this point nobody is hitting because of the sex of the other person.

I used to fight with DS and DB constantly when we were kids, we were all punished the same because hitting is wrong, and TBF it was often DS and I ganging up on him. Why should DB have been treated differently when we were all as bad as each other?

BTW, none of us hit anyone besides each other and we stopped as we got older.

We should teach never to be the instigator of violence
that violence is not an acceptable response to frustration, unfairness, queue jumping, name calling or other non-physical abuse

To walk away from violence where possible

To defend yourself without disproportionate force if not - but be aware that even proportionate force can unintentionally cause death or serious injury and hence serious legal consequences.

Murders are overwhelmingly committed by men, including those of partners

Women are far more likely than men to be murdered by a partner
Men are far more likely to be murder victims of random violence by other men.

Women murder 10 male partners per year, after a history of suffering abuse,
plus another 10 p.a. where there was no such history.
There are about 10 annual murders of male partners by men

http://www.domesticviolencelondon.nhs.uk/1-what-is-domestic-violence-/25-domestic-abuse-against-men.html

Home Office figures reveal that on average

100 women a year and around 30 men a year are killed within a domestic abuse context.
Women are almost exclusively killed by men

whereas in contrast approximately one third of the men are killed by other men

and a little under a third are killed by women against whom they have a documented history of abuse.

Are people saying Scenario 1 is worse? At this point nobody is hitting because of the sex of the other person.

Yep that seems to be exactly what some are saying.