To not understand why the nurse was arrested?

[exisaknob]

Why would you arrest someone for refusing to take blood from someone unconscious?

Was the policeman on glue?!

Even if say it was actually policy, surely you just ask for a superior and medics are allowed to refuse to perform any procedure personally?

Ceto if you're right and he wasn't following training then that would put a very different light on it from the point of view of how the department should handle it. I drew that conclusion from the information in one of the articles about his superior telling him he should arrest if he was denied access and the department's response (which was to retrain the department). I agree that he has a personal responsibility to keep his knowledge up to date and correct, but I'm only arguing that the department shouldn't fire him for following his training, not that he's a great officer who ought to be admired for what he did.

i think she has a hell of a pay day coming, from the officers and his lieutenant.
it is law they cant take a sample with out his consent or a warrant, she was doing the right thing and if she had allowed a sample to be taken she would have lost her job and been the subject of a lawsuit from the victim.
i think the worst bit was when his lieutenant came and tried to tell her she was obstructing justice and her hospital policies are "not his law" their bullying tactics did not work and now its on film for the world to see, she should get millions

The Deseret News article: www.deseretnews.com/article/865687903/Stop-I7ve-done-nothing-wrong-Nurse-shares-police-video-of-crazy-arrest-by-SL-officer.html - includes about 20 minutes of footage.

Salt Lake Police Sgt. Brandon Shearer said Thursday that Chief Mike Brown has seen the video and called it "very alarming." Payne is still on active duty with the department, but Shearer said he has been suspended from the blood draw program and an active internal investigation is underway.

Shearer also admitted that the department's blood-draw policy "hadn't been updated for a little bit" when the incident occurred. But since then, the policy has been changed and training is scheduled to make sure all officers are up to date on the policy, he said.

When asked what she thinks should happen to Payne, Wubbels was reserved in her comments, only stating, "I think he needs some serious training."

I think even more disturbing than the arrest is the browbeating Alex Wubbels was subjected to by the second officer while she sat in the car. He continually states that the hospital rules are in place to prevent the hospital being sued, implying that they are covering their asses while he is upholding the law. (He is dead wrong of course).

This indicates that the department as a whole had no up to date training in the law.

Another indication of that is the repeated comment early on in the tape that drawing blood must have happened lots of times, with the implication that this nurse is just being difficult this one time.

x-post there with Shakingmyhead.

Not much shocks me these days but watching a nurse who was professional at all times and following the rules agreed by her hospital with the police department and following the law, then get manhandled and handcuffed when she is trying to protect her patient (who was the victim of the crash) is gobsmacking.

I'm only arguing that the department shouldn't fire him for following his training,

Apart from the question of whether he knew the law around taking blood, I seriously question whether police training advocates carrying out an arrest in the way he did. There was no prior warning, and it appears he simply went for her because he lost his temper.

I'm only arguing that the department shouldn't fire him for following his training,

He should be using his head and critical thinking skills. As soon as that nurse came out with a policy that the police department had agreed to that said it was illegal to draw his blood, he should have thought 'woah, maybe I should call my superior and check this'.

For a job as important as policing I think the quality of person they employ needs to be much higher. There are far too many thick hot heads in control of guns and handcuffs. Raise your standards US policing!!

The only people who should fear the police are criminals

The big issue is that the people who actually fear the police are usually innocent in the current culture of US policing

There's something very, very wrong with a department that can't even be bothered to keep up to date with procedure and thinks anyone who challenges them is the one with the problem. Not just as an individual, but as an organisation as a whole.
This tells me they actually have zero relationship with any other professionals and anyone who isn't them is considered on the same level as an armed criminal with nothing to lose.

A friend has just come back from watching the eclipse. The car hire firm he used gave him firm advice that most city and state police forces west of the Missouri were not to be trifled with, and that instant compliance was the only option. He was not initiate conversation, make eye contact or sudden movements, answer clearly any questions asked. Some of those questions might be provocative.

When a firm that handles tourists on a regular basis is compelled to scare them to keep them safe, there's something very wrong.

He needs to be in court for assault and he needs to lose his job.

In our hospitals (UK) there are signs everywhere telling people that they won't tolerate their staff being physically or verbally abused, but it seems that in the US if you're a while male with a police badge and a gun you have free range to do exactly those things to a woman going about her job in the correct manner.

Bloody disgusting. I feel so sorry for that poor woman. What a horrible experience.

*free rein, that should be

I think it is primarily to do with a sort of person who can be attracted to policing anywhere in the world.

Sort of. But if you think about the big picture (power, masculinity, authority) there is also the finer points (in the UK the idea of the 'Bobby', in Canada the 'Mountie' etc.). In the USA they are given tanks and water cannons and guns and there is a feeling that they are The Law. The Wild West sheriff, Dirty Harry or Starsky and Hutch. The rules don't apply to them. It's a nasty combination.

Even here in Canada, where the police can do things that are pretty terrible to First Nations, when I saw a young FN girl being man-handled, I said, "I think she is under 19" to the cop, he stopped immediately. Eyes on him made him think at least. Not in this case.

Disgrace, that's terrifying. I used to live in a rough inner-city area, and spent many a summer's night lying in bed involuntarily listening in on the police trying to handle the aftermath of drunken violence. In this country, I never ceased to be amazed at how incredibly bloody patient the police were with people swearing and getting lairy with them. So it's certainly not the case that all police are drawn to police work because they're authoritarian arses. (Some undoubtedly are, and the British police aren't perfect, but at least we don't run the risk that you might be shot as a tourist because you ran a stop sign then weren't sufficiently grovelling towards the police.)

'instant compliance was the only option. He was not initiate conversation, make eye contact or sudden movements, answer clearly any questions asked. Some of those questions might be provocative'

If that's routine advice given out to tourists it's no wonder people like Sarahsue1 are left feeling jittery and terrified they could be at serious risk if they're not in complete control of whatever body language they're giving out.

Made worse if you think about body language you're not even aware of and all the ways that could be randomly misconstrued.

It's a bit police state isn't it?

Maybe these types of officers/situations are inevitable when the majority of the population are in favour of very loose (and in some states practically non existent) gun controls?

Officers perhaps need this mentality to some extent if every person they come up against has the potential to whip out a gun from somewhere?

Yeah Prickly, grovelling is a great word for what seems to be expected

Really creepy.

Appropriate George Orwell quote:

"The relative freedom which we enjoy depends of public opinion. The law is no protection. Governments make laws, but whether they are carried out, and how the police behave, depends on the general temper in the country. If large numbers of people are interested in freedom of speech, there will be freedom of speech, even if the law forbids it; if public opinion is sluggish, inconvenient minorities will be persecuted, even if laws exist to protect them."

I can't help but wonder if he would have reacted the same if it was a male nurse or doctor refusing, probably not

I can't help but wonder if he would have reacted the same if it was a male nurse or doctor refusing, probably not hmm

I agree.

If it had been a black male nurse then the nurse would be on a mortuary slab somewhere.

Been in a sort of similar argument from the other side. This is how it went ...

Me: we need to get a blood sample from that unconscious patient
Nurse: that's not legal, I'm not doing it because I don't have his consent
Me: it is legal, the Road Traffic Act has been amended to cover it. We can take the sample but we can't use it until the patient is able to give consent. If you're not happy I'll get the police surgeon out to take the sample.
Nurse: no I couldn't allow that because I still don't believe it's legal.
Me: can you check with a superior, because I know it's ok and we really need this sample.
Nurse: no because it's 3am on a weekend and there's no-one to ask
Me: well in that case can you ask them to hold onto the pre-transfusion blood sample and the bosses can argue the toss on Monday morning
Nurse: no problem. Are you in a rush or have you got time for a cuppa?

neither of us raised our voices, threw a punch or shot each other (although there may have been a bit of a tussle over the last chocolate hobnob in the tin in the nurses room).

I cannot conceive of a situation that would play out like the one on the video ...

I've had one occasion to disagree with the police at work, and another where I witnessed someone more senior doing so. In both cases, the discussion was calm, measured, and professional on both sides. And yes, ended up with a cuppa, as is only right within the NHS.

Is the real problem that they don't drink enough tea in the US?

I reckon that's it nocool! Everything can be settled over a cuppa!

The poor nurse was only doing her job, in the video she even calls her superiors for guidance. The cop clearly thought that being a vicious bully would intimidate her. Wonder how the authorities are going to cover this one up. Its now a world wide event. He did not lose his job, he was put on 'other duties' So much for justice. This happened in July, how did he get away with it for so long. Stinks of corruption all the way to the top.

If large numbers of people are interested in freedom of speech, there will be freedom of speech, even if the law forbids it; if public opinion is sluggish, inconvenient minorities will be persecuted, even if laws exist to protect them.

This is incredibly important. On every thread where people talk about breaking stupid or illogical rules, or talking to their children about authority and no blindly obeying, they are given so much shit by the 'you must obey' crowd. NO! We must question rules, be a bit stroppy and support others to do so. Police should serve the people, not the other way around.