AIBU - to feel unsupported in my feminist beliefs in the playground

[Goldiloz]

I feel like this is the straw that broke the camels back.
I don't understand why mothers aren't supporting women's rights at primary school. Surely most sane people think that girls should be given the same opportunities as boys. We shouldn't pigeon hole 50% of the population just because they will grow up to have boobs and maybe pop out a kid or two. I feel like I am fighting a losing battle listening to some of the other mums in the playground.
It ranges from presents at birthday parties. The 'norm' seems to be buying girls creative/pink stuff unless they are a 'Tom boy' when they can get 'boy' stuff instead. And boys are only given sports and superhero stuff.
And party bags! Separate ones for boys and girls????
I just don't understand why women fail to see the issue with this and continue to justify it with generalised comments about 'most boys' and 'most girls'.
AIBU to expect more from modern women?

ragged toy and clothing manufacturers seem to think that blue represents boy things and that is what is all around our children is my point. I am however genuinely interested that you say it's red - how is that?

You do raise a good point about boys self limiting more than girls though. I'm a mum to both a boy and a girl and as I said in my post, I do and have always challenged my ds's beliefs in this respect. However, I noticed a big change in him when he reached primary school age and was regularly mixing with other boys. I agree with you entirely, but the shift has to come as a society - and genderising toys is a symptom of a massive disease.

Natalia have a nice time with the little 'uns.
Your response has made me consider my initial response to the OP as I can see I've gone off on a bit of a tangent.
I do love a good ponder

young children who have not been too exposed (yet) to peer pressure and societal norms and expectations will gravitate towards whichever toys they like regardless of colour.

Favorited colour of one of my girls was green - till she started school then it was pink and green - then by next year pink.

DS at three liked to walk from an afternoon group with youngest in pushchair and him pushing a teddy in play pushchair - to pick eldest up from school club. As it was slightly later had secondary school kids walking home. They made comments about pushchair being pink and about him doing that with a pushchair - at three he heard and got upset and nothing I said changed that. Had to swap pushchair to shopping trolley which didn't collapse, so was more of a pain for me, for him to enjoy pushing teddy again.

Personally I get more upset by my girls being told maths is a boy subject – and later science as well, and my Ds who is a avid reader than reading is a girl thing – and we shouldn’t worry about his fiction writing because he a boy so should be pushed too maths and science. This has come from teachers, other children and parents – it takes some effort to counter as well.

I am surprised OP say this is a woman thing – IME the dad’s picking up are the same and often worse though often more with boys – girls get a bit more ley way with preferences.

The perception of 'boys' subjects' is a major issue.

Despite evidence that girls outperform boys counterparts in all GCSE level science A* – C; despite similar proportions of girls and boys taking GCSE physics; by A level, girls tend to drop maths and science and the number of girls studying physics is a mere 7,000 (compared to 26,000 boys.)

In 2011 50% of mixed state schools had no girls studying A level physics at all.

Women are significantly under-represented in STEM careers with fewer than 1 in 10 in engineering.

Research in 2013, referenced in the New Scientist, found that girls who considered themselves feminine were more likely to think that STEM subjects were not for them. Other research has identified preconceptions among school teachers, who tend to think of boys as naturally better at science than girls.

I do agree its sad to see the blue and pink thing in toy shops, and with clothes. The slogans used on children clothing is very sad. There was a programme about it last week. The attitudes of the children was depressing. I don't get sloganed t shirts for my children. There is no stopping a parent getting a Millenuim falcon for their girl, and a craft set for their boy if they want it. You don't have to adhere to it.

I agree 110%, I think it's not just about feminism, bur common sense and wanting the best for your children as both genders are suffering, in different ways.

tatiana I've told this before but one of my DDs is very mathy and very good at science, esp physics. We were moving schools for the DCs and I briefly considered a very academic school for her. We had an interview with the teacher in charge of admissions - who taught physics - who commented that, "With results like these it really would have been better if she was a boy".

Needless to say we didn't go there and the school she's at is fantastic and also very academic. She's doing pull out maths 3-4 years ahead and is doing well. She's not even top of the year - the person who consistently does slightly better is also a girl.

It's interesting though, because she deliberately eschews overly feminine stereotypes, although in features she looks very 'girly'. I don't think it's because she's STEMy though, more because she loves sport and prefers to do this at break times.

There is certainly a perception that dads can't play boy type games with DDs like trains or Lego. It's disappointing to me how often people have suggested that my DH might be sorry that we didn't get to adopt a boy as well as our 2 DDs. He isn't at all, he plays building games like Lego and playmobil with our DDs and they love it.

"I think it's not just about feminism, bur common sense and wanting the best for your children as both genders are suffering, in different ways."

That's why feminism is good for everybody.

YANBU.

I agree that the small, insidious stuff is just as important as the big stuff. In fact, I think this is one of those things for which the expression 'if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem' very much applies.

Should qualify that statement by saying, because unfortunately we all need to make a conscious effort to swim against the tide, and just going with the tide is adding to the problem.

But swimming against the tide is very difficult. And scary. Which is one of the reasons some people are so hostile to people who suggest it's something they should be doing.

I also wanted to be a Pilot when I was at school, and joined the Air Cadets, I flew chipmunk planes from an RAF base and it was wonderful. I wanted to Join the BA pilot training scheme but mum would not let me, as she thought I would not be that good, as my maths is weak, so I ended up doing a Psychology BA and MSc. OH how I wish I ignored mum and just went for it.

I will support my children with what ever they want to be, if my daughter wants to be an engineer or Pilot or whatever that's great, and if ds wants to be a Nurse or in the caring professions, so be it.

You can have both, there was this programme a while ago about Eddie Stobbart, and there was a lady lorry driver, who was into her glitter, pink and sparkles, whilst working a male dominated job. I saw a programme about pilots, and a female pilot, was into her make up and glamour. There you go. You can have one with the other.

well, I live out feminist ideals on a daily basis in my career and my marriage and yet i wouldn't want a power tool for a birthday present, so I think there must be some scope to recognise that girls and boys sometimes like different things.

Pretending gender doesn't exist isnt the same as being a feminist.

^"why turn it into a mum issue and why only school mums at the school gate?"
Is that really the most important point here?^

Well yes I think it is. Assuming, as this thread does, that the majority of mums are at home or at the school gate, who does that leave to make the decisions that influence marketing and packaging and women in the workplace and all of these issues discussed here? Men presumably? So unless you educate men (and boys) then it's just reduced to women who make it an issue but aren't in a position to make changes. I'm raising two boys and unless I change their attitudes too it's another generation with the same attitudes and problems.

Sorry to detail your thread op.

Feminist blaming other women for party bags that aren't good enough? Ok...

Receiving any party bag is a nice gesture, you sound very ungrateful & quite frankly hard work.

Planning a party and Birthday can be hard enough without the worry of basket case demands. I also don't think doing generic sex party bags will deeply effect a child's future. Some people just look to find issues that aren't there.

Also why is this only the mothers issue, Fathers have just as much of an input?

YABVU

Tiredbum- can I ask why you think it's OK to be so rude?

I don't understand. I buy mostly neautral clothing when my girls were younger I also buy the neautral toys so greens and yellows rather than the stereotypical boy or girl colours. I also dress myself in neutral clothing and don't have anything really pink in my house.

Yet my eldest girl (the only one who can voice what she likes out of the two) loves barbie and plays with them everyday, she also loves her stretch Armstrong toy and her toy cars but again loves her baby doll and pushing in the pram. When out she will choose little lego toys as a treat but loves princess frilly nightdresses and will be drawn to them every time. Now, she has had no social conditioning yet choose this stuff, is it now not ok for a girl to like typically girl toys? Will the feminists only stop once they completely swap the genders over and have all boys playing with pink and all the girls blue? Then surely we are just creating the same problem but the other way around?

Raise your child how you like and let others do the same.

I think it us equally insidious to create a situation where STEM subjects and Lego and sport is valued but not creative or fiction writing or reading etc.
There is a danger that by trying to counteract stereotypes you can actually push people into things really not of their interest.

There's no doubt that social conditioning is insidious. My children are cared for primarily by their father but DD has absorbed the pink lessons and loves nail polish. I'm fine with that even if I am sometimes surprised at how prevalent it is when you consider that she doesn't even go to nursery or similar.

However, I do find it shocking that so few people question these things. That think DDs love of nail polish is genetic. FFS. Of course it's not genetic. It's because she's picked up on things around her and is identifying accordingly.

I'm not going to force her not to wear pink as part of a feminist ideal. But I sure as hell am not going to encourage it either. Both children are encouraged to play the same games, and by both me and Dh playing those games with them, they do. I will happily buy a little girl a "girlie" toy if I know she prefers it, but I don't assume that and, where I can, I go for toys that are more gender neutral. Girl/Boy party bags just boggle my mind - it's a bag of tat, surely a bouncy ball is a bouncy ball? why does it have to have a princess (girl) or superhero (ball)?

As parents, I think it's our responsibility to try to question the stereotypes and to teach our children to feel comfortable in themselves no matter what they're doing. But you can't do that if you don't first acknowledge that these exist and that our children are being pushed into certain types of behaviour because of longstanding social conditioning.

On a slightly separate note, for example, nothing makes me angrier than when I hear parents (usually dads) saying to their DS's: "You're throwing like a girl" or "you're crying like a little girl." It is so damaging to both boys and girls and yet is so prevalent. You hear it all the time.

It's disappointing to me how often people have suggested that my DH might be sorry that we didn't get to adopt a boy as well as our 2 DDs.

DW has seriously retrograde views like this. I once paused in Tesco to look at Star Wars toys and she said "never mind, we might have a boy one day" and when I asked DD1 if she'd like to stay up to watch the Champions League final she tutted and said "Daddy just wanted a boy...", statements which actually get more insulting the more you think about them.

I will buy what my child likes. Sterotypical or not. Whatever gift my child receives i will smile and say thank you as will my child regardless to what the gift is. Buying my daughter a pink dress os hardly going to opress her and buying trucks for my sons is hardly limiting their future.

I am sure all the mums at the school think you are being unreasonable....as for the fathers...who knows? They obviously are not allowed to be involved with all these discussions as only mums do the school run accorfing to your OP! Your whole OP is stereotypical in its own right. Was it done on purpose?

aeroflot
How would you feel if your girl wanted to be a nurse though? Even though she was good at physics?