AIBU - to feel unsupported in my feminist beliefs in the playground

[Goldiloz]

I feel like this is the straw that broke the camels back.
I don't understand why mothers aren't supporting women's rights at primary school. Surely most sane people think that girls should be given the same opportunities as boys. We shouldn't pigeon hole 50% of the population just because they will grow up to have boobs and maybe pop out a kid or two. I feel like I am fighting a losing battle listening to some of the other mums in the playground.
It ranges from presents at birthday parties. The 'norm' seems to be buying girls creative/pink stuff unless they are a 'Tom boy' when they can get 'boy' stuff instead. And boys are only given sports and superhero stuff.
And party bags! Separate ones for boys and girls????
I just don't understand why women fail to see the issue with this and continue to justify it with generalised comments about 'most boys' and 'most girls'.
AIBU to expect more from modern women?

I agree with you OP. I am really sad to see all the negative comments on this thread too.

I admit to having been guilty of this in the past. The gendering of clothing and toys is so ingrained in society now it is hard to see beyond it. It is actually very difficult to think beyond it and when you need to get a quick present for a birthday party and you're low on time and money you grab the first pink sparkly thing for a girl and Lego for a boy.

Womens/girls rights is much much more than liking sparkles and crafts these mums are raising children and their girls may or maynot like pink gifts that has nothing to do with her rights as a female, surely you know that

Colour coding is more of a thing now than it used to be when I was growing up, imo. It's very aggressive marketing and OTT.

On that level I agree, OP.

I used to love the colour blue but I wasn't a tomboy particularly.

I get your point. I also get that some girls do like pink/some boys do like trucks, so if there is a birthday coming up, I ask if there is a particular 'thing' the child likes.
However I don't do different party bags the same year goes in regardless of sex
I also hate to hear parents encouraging little boys to "man up" and not cry is they're hurt.

feminism means equality not lessening the role of men or whatever the daily mail says

And what does equality mean? Serious question. Because like "democracy" and "justice", it's a big statement to put out there. Like some sort of Platonic ideal. But what does that actually mean in practice? Take democracy. Does that mean a representative democracy like we have now, or every person vote on every issue? If the latter is impractical and we have the former, then what about a referendum? Is that then undemocratic by its very nature?

"Equality" has exactly the same problems attached to it. Do you mean "the same under all circumstances"? You can wave goodbye to women's sport, then. Do you mean "equal opportunity to do all jobs"? Well - if you're a firefighter and you have to be able to carry an 8 stone person 200 yards (or whatever) then I'm always going to be at a significant disadvantage to my 6 foot uncle. These are banal examples, but you get the picture and you can go on and on ad infinitum, because biology dictates that there are differences between men and women. So it's usually at this point - when someone is essentially defining what equality means to them (and it usually is different for each person when you get down to the minutiae) that I end up disagreeing with most feminist arguments I've heard.

So I wouldn't "support your feminist beliefs in the playground". Not because I'm too stupid to understand your argument or its conclusion, but probably because I'd take issue with your first premise.

I could weep when I look in shops selling toys, books and clothing for children these days. Finding anything that hasn't been gender stereotyped is becoming almost impossible. Why have we allowed this situation to go backwards? We made huge strides in later part of the twentieth century, when did we take our eyes off the ball and allow this insidious sexism back in?

Actually, the firefighter one is a good example. Anyone who can meet the requirements of the job should have an equal chance of getting the job. Regardless of sex. Not sure why you think that is an argument against feminism.....

A lot of the parties my kids have been to have had different party bags for boys and girls with different content. When my son had a whole class party, he got things like a toy gun, cars and trucks. DD's presents were more like playdough, aquabeads and Lego friends.

The school had a knights and princesses dress up day last year. None of the girls dressed up as knights or boys as princesses.

Anyone who can meet the requirements of the job should have an equal chance of getting the job.

Agreed. It wasn't meant to be "an argument against feminism", but a demonstration of the inherent difficulty with the notion of "equality" which is being held up as the aim of feminism.

Take a firefighter's job. It has certain physical requirements. The biological differences between men and women mean that more men will meet those requirements. I'm a petite woman, so would never have a chance. So, as a result, there will be significantly more male firefighters. Do women therefore have equal opportunities to enter that profession? As I said, it all rather depends on your definition of "equality". It's a much more complex concept that it's often made out to be.

what does equality mean? I think that's a really interesting question Natalia and it's very much part of a feminist agenda to discuss this properly, so please don't distance yourself from feminism because you want to ask it!
Personally, I don't think that feminism is about equality of opportunity or equality of outcome. Trying to make everyone the same is very much a right wing concern in terms of trying to make everybody an equal stake holder in a free-market economy.
My kind of feminism is more about pushing for the liberation of women from oppression. Although we have laws which guarantee protection from violence, rape, discrimination etc etc, we all know that these things exist in a much more pervasive way for women than for men (who are statistically responsible for most violent and sexual crimes). Feminism is about tackling these issues and there is quite feasibly, I think, a link between how boys and girls are brought up with different societal expectations and the power relationships which they exhibit as adults.

"Do women therefore have equal opportunities to enter that profession? "

So long as one of the requirements isn't "Must have a penis" then yes.

Both my DSs had really long hair all through primary school. Boy did it get everyone's nickers in a twist! Not sure if they're a boy or a girl lol. It wasn't allowed for secondary school. 😳 FWIW my oldest DD is a computer programmer. We weren't that fussed over toys but it's your attitudes that count, what you teach them to believe every day. Real equality.
MN HQ you should ban feminazi its massively offensive on many levels.

Bertrand so sorry you're ill!

[kids] will dismiss a toy if it's the wrong gender colour even if their parents have tried their hardest to insist that it doesn't matter. The Hoovers and kitchens will be pink, and what society says is 'masculine' will be blue.

Red, actually. The most masculine colour is red.
Also, the girls don't reject any colour, really, although they may prefer pink when available, but the girls are fairly catholic about colour otherwise. However, BOYS do reject girly stuff. Very strongly. It's the boys who self-limit in choices. It's the boy choices that drive gender segregation most strongly. If you want to reduce gender segregation, Stop targeting what girls do or choose, start targeting what boys think are good choices for them.

So long as one of the requirements isn't "Must have a penis" then yes.

Okay. But if that's what equality means, then why the concern that women are underrepresented in jobs in, say, STEM or the City? (Which I think is an entirely valid concern, by the way). I've seen many an advertisement in the FT saying "must have valid EU work permit", but never one saying "must have a penis"!

I find myself massively torn by this issue. Part of me thinks it shouldn't be an issue at all, our job as parents is to guide them and to show them that girls don't have to play with dolls and boys trucks and that when my daughter tells me she can't play football because she's a girl, my job is to show her that's not true.

But a very large part of me is annoyed that it has to be my job to tell her that. I used to be very much of the opinion that they make up their own mind. My then toddler daughter liked pink but didn't hugely gravitate towards it, she choose green and blue toys for in the garden, and would choose dragons and Star Wars toys. Then she started school, now Star Wars is for boys, pink is everything and smiggle is her life, even her fidget spinner had to be pink. Now this could be her becoming more aware of what she likes, but I fear it's much more her conforming with her peers. It makes me a bit sad, and I battle against the tide to continue to have some of the other things in the mix.
Ultimately I hope these things don't in the end define her, I used to like pink and now don't own any and went into quite a male dominated work place.
I hope that by allowing her to explore all options an encouraging her that she can be all she wants to be and more, and that she can do anything, we will strike the right balance in the end.

Huge eye roll at the phrase 'gender neutral' sick of it, let kids play with what they want to, who cares if Tarquin has a pink balloon at a party it's a colour, presents are gifts not something you tell others they must buy, let children be children, and I wish this whole use any public loo and not wanting to specify gender on birth certificates would stop, in all for equality but good grief x

I've never thought about gender specific party bags!

*shivermytimbers" That's a really interesting response (although I'd say a very different take on it from the one offered by the OP!). Completely agree with the right wing slant on equality as "everyone the same", although hadn't thought of it in that way before (thank you!).

Being hassled to go out and get off MN - so I'll ponder this while looking after small children and come back on this later if that's okay?

"who cares if Tarquin has a pink balloon at a party"

Lots of people. That's rather the point.

Star girl, on the subject of plastic, you might be interested by the link between feminism and environmentalism.

wmeac.org/ecofeminism-environmental-justice-gender-intersectional-lens/

OP, I don't think you are being unreasonable in the slightest. It's just a small symptom of a much bigger and endemic underlying problem.

I tried to bring my children up as gender neutral as possible

As i was before it turned into a 'thing'

All three of mine are very different

Happy to agree that socialisation outside of the home can make a massive difference

I used to give dd my unwanted lipstick (she mainly drew with it ) A freind couldn't get her head round it as it was something she didn't do. She bought dd so much of it that eventually dd asked me to ask her to stop. Dd doesn't really wear makeup

Oh my apologies

OP i dont think you are being unreasonable