To be frustrated by the misunderstanding of the honorific 'Ms' ?

[ChinkChink]

Inspired by another thread.

I've come across many people who believe that 'Ms' is the honorific for a divorced woman, rather than the female equivalent of 'Mr'. People including several employers, managers, supervisors etc, plus friends and family who I'd normally regard as clued up. And many of them women.

I do welcome the introduction of the term 'Mx' as a title to be used when gender is irrelevant [almost always!] but I fear that Mx will go the same way - people will interpret it as a title for someone who is [for example] transgender.

What say you, MN massive?

I seldom get mail with a title. It's usually just first name last name, and the salutation is the same

There must have been a general instruction given to our secretaries but the vast majority of letters sent to clients now follow that practice except for clients who have what I would call a "proper title" and we know they use it.

This class includes any one who tells us it is Dr; anyone we know has a hereditary title; any one who has been elevated to Sir, Lord etc; anyone who is a Reverend or other church dignity. I suppose the common factor is these are all titles which have been acquired (even if inherited) rather than self- chosen.

I'm still sceptical at all these teachers answering to "Miss" with no surname. That would have been considered extremely rude in my school (state 1964 to 1977) and in my son's (private 1995 to 2008)

"Also any of you who are adament you are a Ms - don't become a teacher - to students you are all Miss or Sir - regardless!!"

As I said a few hours ago, at my sons' state primary school in London, staff tell the children what title they'd like them to use and the children do it. Simple. Well, for 4-11 yr olds....obviously not so simple for the adults on here....

Yep, all pupils definitely do what teachers
would like them to do at all times. In some schools, you're lucky to avoid being called fucking bitch, so I'm not sure correct honorifics are top of anyone's priorities tbh.

Pupils don't say "Ms" in my experience any more than they say "Mrs" or "Mr" - they are only used when attached to a surname. "Miss" (like sir) are the ones that are used alone.

If I wanted to hide the fact that I couldn't get a husband, I'd call myself Mrs.........

I teach adults and they still call me Miss - I actually think it's quite sweet and don't mind.

Outside of that though I am definitely Ms.

@StillDrivingMeBonkers why would being mistaken for a feminist or a lesbian make you angry? We should all be feminist - it jus means you think women should be equal to men in all areas of life. Not offensive.

Eolian....right......

I got married and remained Miss My Name.

I didn't change it to Mrs because I'm not interested in defining myself according to marriage.

I didn't opt for Ms because I saw no reason to have to choose something new that wasn't Mrs.

I don't give a flying fuck if people think I am unmarried, or divorced (I am divorced)

I find Miss pointless and rarely use it - only if a website insists on something.

It was pointless enough not to give a shit about changing it.

Personally, I wouldn't mind being identified as a feminist or mistaken for a lesbian. Nor do I feel a need to signal to the universe whether I have managed to snare a man.

Very unfortunately, I don't have this problem (insofar as this problem could be caused by choice of title anyway) because I'm a Dr .

Although, in the interests of striking a blow for my fellow radical feminist lesbians (and not-lesbians) perhaps I should consider switching to Ms.

Dr is a totally feminist title. Gives you a chance to explain to people that no a Dr. and Mr. couple is not necessarily a gay one.

"I'm still sceptical at all these teachers answering to "Miss" with no surname. That would have been considered extremely rude in my school (state 1964 to 1977) and in my son's (private 1995 to 2008)"

One of the things I have to stop myself being stroppy about in my ds's school is that all teachers are Miss or Mr. But even worse is "a Miss". As in "I don't know- find a Miss and ask"

Dr is a totally feminist title.

Shh, don't mention that or it'll go on the list of unacceptable shameful titles for ghastly fallen women .

Maireadastic: same here. Dcs and friends in a London comp all refer to Ms This, Dr That, Mrs TheOther Miss Someone, Ms Etc naturally, with accuracy and without fuss or second thought.

This thread reminds of this sketch. If you take the title Ms then your head will explode. Lighthearted I promise. I don't care what you call yourselves.

Yes, TestTube, I don't know why some won't believe it!

But even worse is "a Miss". As in "I don't know- find a Miss and ask" I love you Bertrand

I have used the Ms title since the 80's when it wasn't even a choice on forms and I had to write it in myself. Even as an 18year old I understood the concept of not being defined by my marital status - it's not that difficult to grasp surely ?!
I find it depressing that some women don't seem to get that using the title Ms is actually in their favour as opposed to defining themselves via a man or lack of.
We are free to do as we choose and call ourselves what we like, but to so adamantly want to be seen as single (for example) is rather baffling. I suggest overzealous Miss poster gets herself a nice T shirt with "I'm a Miss" on it in large bold letters, just in case.

I wish we could get rid of Mrs altogether. I can't think I of a situation off the top of my head where it's necessary for a stranger/employer/client to know if a woman is married or not. Except a registrar maybe!

When we write court statements (I am sw) we use mr and ms whatever the marital status of the woman concerned is. Sometimes snr and jnr but usually ms j smith and ms b smith if several females members of the same family.

I used to be sniffy about it myself but now I don't care. I don't want to be miss it makes me sound v young! Ms is neutral imo

I've been Ms for years ( and am still happily married 33 years on).

My marital status is entirely my own affair and I much prefer to keep it that way.

It can be frustrating, a few times this year I've had to deal with staff at my local building society branch question me on it because they seemed to genuinely believe that it was illegal for me to use to it without being or in the process of divorce or that I needed some sort of evidence to use it for myself . Once had to wait around because the person training the person I was talking to said she needed go check with someone else because she was "pretty sure that's the law". Very strange.

Likely similar will be thought by some on Mx, though I'd rather just drop titles completely rather than make new ones.

Maireadplastic, obviously I'm exaggerating a bit, but pupils are not universally polite to teachers and often don't think about or care about manners enough to bother thinking about whether they are using the correct title. I'm amazed that this is surprising to anyone really. Poor behaviour and lack of respect for teachers in schools is pretty much common knowledge.

Derxa

Thank you for the Harry Enfield video. Funnily enough I was just thinking about these yesterday (one about women and embroidery and kittens - I can't remember what brought it to mind).

I had forgotten how funny the show was - especially these Public Service Announcements.

several orders of magnitude more people in RL have told me it is.

But Copper, why would you believe those people, (who are likely to be coming from a biased position given they have all but one chosen Miss or Mrs, and are also the ones suggesting being single is something that needs to be hidden), rather than unbiased sources such as dictionaries or historical documents on the origins of the title?

I'd suggest that even the biased accounts of those who have adopted the title Ms is a more reliable evidence base about women's motivations for using the title.

And even if your very rude acquaintances were correct and that was what the title used to denote (incorrect, of course, they must fre so embarrassed), there are problems with saying 'words mean what they used to mean'. The main problem being that it is manifestly untrue, and has been since the origins of language. Look at words such as nice, silly, gay, awful, bully, brave.

A secondary problem is that you're talking about the connotations of a word rather than the meaning. The connotations in your social circle sound dreadful and very old-fashioned, but that doesn't alter the meaning of the word.

I've only every heard the divorced thing on MN

Me too. This is going to sound really rude but I can't fathom how anyone with a functioning brain could come up with that interpretation. What possible need could it serve to announce to the world that you are divorced?